question for watch guys

DaveH said:
I think COSC cronometer certification is something like +- 4 or 6 seconds a day, so in a week you could be off a minute, four or five minutes off by the end of a month. That standard might have been good a hundred years ago.

Lets use some actual math. :p

-4/+6 is the spec. If its at the absolute worst end of the spectrum and STAYS there (rare), then thats 6x7 or 42 seconds off at the end of the week. 42 seconds x 4.3 weeks is 180 seconds off over the course of a month or about three minutes. In reality, many mechanical watch owners know a position that they can place their watch in that will negate most of, if not all of the innaccuracies of the day. You CAN'T do this with a quartz.

http://www.chronocentric.com/watches/accuracy.shtml

And for what its worth, I have a Timex that that is about 2 seconds off a day. I've had mechanical watches that will consistently beat that...

But as has been stated MANY times in these "mechanicals suck, quartz rules" threads, accuracy isn't that big of a deal.

Mark
 
In response to positioning mechanical watches, that is very true. My favorite Seiko Diver will run about 5 minutes a month fast if I don't wear it regularly but wear enough to keep it running. When I wear it from waking to time to go to sleep, and store it crown up at night it runs almost dead on with my atomic clock for months, only a few seconds off, when worn/stored as I mentioned it is probably my most accurate watch, quartz or mechanical.
 
Actually, many new Rolex models are nearly impervious to positional variation. I'm don't recall which doo-dad achieves this; it may be a free sprung balance or an overcoil or a flash-whizzinator, but it is quite true.

-And it is generally a non-issue for them to be regulated to run spot-on or a second or two a day. Chronometer specs really are much broader than modern autos require.
 
If you think a bic/fisher is better than a waterman/mount blanc etc. fountain pen you wouldn't understand.

It not about price nor does the best job. A quartz atomic wrist watch is $1000's less and 100% more accurate. But I step across a mile of them for a good mechanical. I wear a $150 poljot (fortis copy) swiss automatic and I think it blows my quartz watches out of the water . When I get the $$ I want a omega automatic.

Pick up a mossberg 500 and a remington 870 and a Benelli tell me the mossberg is just as good and you would pick it if given the choice to own one.


Pride of ownership comes from more than just cost break point for some of us.


Paul
 
I agree, IMO the mechanical watch thing falls into the "if you have to ask you probably won't understand" category.

If all you care about is performance then buy a quartz. It will be much more accurate and much cheaper. Mechanical watches are for people who appreciate the craft of the watch and the fact that people can create a mechanism that is purely mechanical, relying on springs and gears, that will wind itself simply from the motion of your wrist and all the while maintain 99.99% accuracy. To me, that is simply an amazing feat of human engineering. I bought my first mechanical watch just over a year ago (Seiko diver) and have fallen in love with them. I've had a couple Seiko's, two Omega's, a SAR and finally my Rolex. Other then a beater Gshock I will probably never buy another quartz watch in my life. While I love nice watches (Rolex, Omega, etc) I certainly don't think you have to spend that much to get a decent automatic. The Seiko divers are amazing values for about $130.
 
I think some folks have a misconception of how quartz watches are created.

They seem to think that quartz watches just pop out of a giant robotic machine with no human interaction whatsoever.

I wonder what all of those Seiko and Citizen employees do all day?

Allen.
 
allenC said:
I think some folks have a misconception of how quartz watches are created.

They seem to think that quartz watches just pop out of a giant robotic machine with no human interaction whatsoever.

I wonder what all of those Seiko and Citizen employees do all day?

Allen.

Heh, indeed. And on the other side we have companies like Omega and Rolex producing over a thousand mechanical watches per day - in other words, assembly line products. At these numbers I doubt there is a big difference in the ratio of manual to machine labour between mechanical and quartz watches.

I have the feeling that the mechanical watch industry (not just the producers, but also the retailers and to a degree the consumers) foster some sort of myth/hype surrounding mechanical watches. As far as I know this began in the seventies, when quartz technology allowed large Asian manufacturers to build extremely accurate watches in large quantities for low prices. Suddenly the comparably small Western companies needed to convince the consumers that their mechanical products were not crude, obsolete and over-priced, but rather traditional, luxurious, classic, somewhat elitist, filled with soul; emotional attributes that cannot be properly quantified or even described, but the point is: quartz is for the uneducated masses, the distinguished person wears mechanical. And the Western companies seem to have been successful with this, at least in the Western countries. I know that Citizen and Seiko do produce high-end quartz watches solely for the Japanese market, with prices rivalling top mechanical watches. Maybe the consumers´ perceptions are different there, I do not know how well Western watchmakers do in Japan.

Some of the pro-mechanical arguments leave me a bit puzzled. For example, I often read about "soul-less" quartz watches. The circuitry of a quartz watch is certainly closer to a human brain than the gears of a mechanical watch. If I hoped to find anything soul-like in a watch (which I don´t), I would look for it in a quartz.
And there is so much science behind the development of the quartz. The process may not have been as focussed as the development of the mechanical watch, where it was mostly watchmakers thinking about improvements for watches, whereas the quartz watch is the result of many scientific fields and discoveries converging. But to me there is much more human ingenuity in a quartz watch than in a mechanical one.

The COSC and its "chronometer"-classification seems to be another case of the mechanical watch industry marketing myths. I found this article on Timezone to be an interesting read. The gist of it: COSC specifications are from more than a century ago, and about 95 % of the watches sent for testing will pass the test. Many watchmakers don´t even bother with the COSC, rather they apply their own, stricter standards, and thus the chronometer rating does not really mean much. But Switzerland cannot afford trying to change the specifications to something stricter, as the responsible ISO-committee no longer consists of mostly European countries. The current Asian majority would vote for specifications so strict that mechanical watches could no longer pass the tests. This would be bad for Rolex and Omega, who both want the "chronometer"-label on their watches, and as these companies provide most of the COSC´s income, the COSC itself could go out of business.

Now, I realize that to a degree I am insinuating that buyers of mechanical watches are a bit gullible for accepting the marketing hype. But keep in mind that I myself wear a Sinn 244Ti - not exactly the most expensive watch, but still a COSC-certified mechanical chronometer - and I have a mechanical Omega DeVille for more formal occasions, so I am insulting myself just as much. I certainly "get" the joy of owning mechanical watches, I just think one should also remain a bit realistic about it.

Kristofer
 
excellent post, grey area.
it's all marketing in my eyes. just like the diamond industry.
I still laugh when I think of albert brooks when he said, the swiss makes watches, not the japanese, and I don't recall what he said next but I would venture to guess he said, now if they made a tiny radio, I'm in.
Just one of his many anecdotes he needed to "defend" his life.
edit, I too bought my first auto watch a yr ago but I don't wear it often enough, it stops running when I wake up and I have to "wind" it again. I take off my watch when I get home. I'm looking for slim quartz like my first seiko over 20 yrs ago, a goldtone rectangle dress watch.
 
The reason for the current pass/fail COSC standard has nothing to do with competition from quartz movements; they're rated separately. The problem is competition from Japanese mechanical movements.

Used to be the Swiss government tested mechanical movements for accuracy to see which were the most accurate. Then the Japanese started winning all the time so the current pass/fail standard was designed to avoid publicising that.
 
I have a relatively inexpensive Steinhauser watch, mechanical retro style with visible working parts, nice silver case and leather band, and also an expensive Citizen Eco Drive, black face, metal link band, superb accurate watch.
My job requires accurate timing so the Citizen is the EDC.
But the Steinhauser just oozes class, mechanical excellence, and style, and therefore is the dress watch of choice.

Some good comments about custom knives and shotguns made earlier are very appropriate.

Men wear jewelry too.
 
Grey Area,
That was an excellent post.

I did'nt mean to imply that Rolex watches and other high-dollar watches are not fine time pieces, but I think that a little bit of reality is needed.

High dollar watches are status symbols of wealth and exclusivity, and that's okay with me.
I just think folks should be honest about the fact.

Allen.
 
allenC said:
High dollar watches are status symbols of wealth and exclusivity, and that's okay with me.
I just think folks should be honest about the fact.

Allen.

How about you let me buy my watches for the reasons I choose and you can buy whatever you want for the reasons YOU choose.

This is just like the silly argument that Porsches and Lambos are just status symbols. Has it ever crossed your mind that people might buy them because they like them, like driving them, and other people and what they think be damned? :rolleyes:

Mark
 
I think the problem is a watch only does 2 things. Sits on your wrist and looks good, and keeps time. If it kinda sucks at keeping time, then it's only looking good. At that point, coupled with the price it becomes a status symbol.

There's nothing wrong with status symbols, society is full of them. But before purchase, anyone should consider in rational terms just exactly what it is they are purchasing and why.

The problem is it would be hard to sell watches if they said that, so that's where marketing comes in That's when stuff like "soul" comes in or "superlative timekeeper".

Again, it's not that I'm bashing watches like this or people that buy them, just that there should be a dose of reality in the argument.
 
slide13 said:
I agree, IMO the mechanical watch thing falls into the "if you have to ask you probably won't understand" category.

If all you care about is performance then buy a quartz. It will be much more accurate and much cheaper. Mechanical watches are for people who appreciate the craft of the watch and the fact that people can create a mechanism that is purely mechanical, relying on springs and gears, that will wind itself simply from the motion of your wrist and all the while maintain 99.99% accuracy. To me, that is simply an amazing feat of human engineering. I bought my first mechanical watch just over a year ago (Seiko diver) and have fallen in love with them. I've had a couple Seiko's, two Omega's, a SAR and finally my Rolex. Other then a beater Gshock I will probably never buy another quartz watch in my life. While I love nice watches (Rolex, Omega, etc) I certainly don't think you have to spend that much to get a decent automatic. The Seiko divers are amazing values for about $130.

Well done! I have a nice sized collection of both quarz and mechanical watches and although I appreciate a good quartz (oysterquartz, omega, etc), nothing seems to do it for me like the ticking of a hi beat automatic. My EDC Doxa Sub 300T keeps time within -8 to +2 seconds a day. Does my Omega quartz Seamaster Pro keep better time? You bet. Do I appreciate the Omega as much? Nope.
Matt
 
Minjin said:
How about you let me buy my watches for the reasons I choose and you can buy whatever you want for the reasons YOU choose.

This is just like the silly argument that Porsches and Lambos are just status symbols. Has it ever crossed your mind that people might buy them because they like them, like driving them, and other people and what they think be damned? :rolleyes:

Mark

You can't give that argument. Porsches and Lambos are proven to be good driving and fast cars. They are good at what they do. When a watch can't keep accurate time then what good is it?
 
Point44 said:
You can't give that argument. Porsches and Lambos are proven to be good driving and fast cars. They are good at what they do. When a watch can't keep accurate time then what good is it?
I guess the question is how accurate? DO you really need a second hand? For what you wear on your wrist a couple seconds a day means nothing. Fo the person that posted he needed precision timing for his job, come on. I seriously doubt you need that kind of accuracy from your watch. What do you time?

When you say mechanicals are not as accurate, you be hard pressed to tell it in anything you need to measure using your wrist watch.


Paul
 
Inaccuracy isn't really a problem. Losing a couple of seconds a day isn't a big thing but what i think several people are trying to say is that a quartz is superior in many ways.

If you think about it, if you have a quartz, you will need a battery unless it's an eco-drive or kinetic. But a mechanical watch also needs servicing. So whatever watch you wear you still need to go visit the watch repairer.

It's just funny that when someone buys a knife they want something simple like an integral lock so that it'll have less possibility of failure but when they choose a watch they want the more complicated mechanism as opposed to a quartz.

Edited to add:
Just FYI, I am not anti-mechanical watches but one of the posts up there has me think about it. In fact, I'm graduating soon and one of my planned purchases was going to be a Sinn or an SMP. I'm still gonna get a mechanical watch just 'cos it's cool.
 
It's just funny that when someone buys a knife they want something simple like an integral lock so that it'll have less possibility of failure but when they choose a watch they want the more complicated mechanism as opposed to a quartz.
Like I said some people like their 25 cent Bic, others their $$$$$ fountain pen.

Some people like CD's some still like vinyl.

SOme like Harleys some like Honda's.

Some like hidden cables and mechanicals.

There are thing that you do not need and you take your preference. When it comes to tools that you need and use every day you buy the best that does the job the best.

Things I do not need and can't explain to you why my picks are what suits me: Watches, pens, guitars, knives.

After all to put it better, isn't homogenous tool steel better for a knife than that archaic damascus.:D

Paul
 
Point44 said:
You can't give that argument. Porsches and Lambos are proven to be good driving and fast cars. They are good at what they do. When a watch can't keep accurate time then what good is it?

Not any better than a much cheaper Corvette Z06 or EVO FQ400...

The whole point of the argument is that people buy things they LIKE. If people want to ask WHY they are liked, I fully understand. And if they don't 'get it', thats also something that I understand. I, personally, don't get Jeeps (that are driven on the road). But I don't go around telling people that they are just buying Jeeps as a status symbol (which they can be in certain areas) and that they are just trying to look cool (which is basically what status symbol boils down to). There are no 'facts' to face when it comes to purchases as the ridiculous posts above state. People are allowed to have reasons that I don't know or understand. Oh, and how is my watch a status symbol when its concealed by my shirt cuff 95% of the time? :barf:

Mark
 
We all justify what we have in terms that are important to us.

I buy mechanicals because they stir some need or emotion in me that I cannot get from a quartz watch. I like the fact that there is a level of interaction required on my part that can give the watch "life" or change it's rate.
I am inexplicably drawn to some "older" items or technologies. I play with conventional blades when I golf, fry my food in cast iron pans, and love muscle cars. Mechanical watches fit into that area.
My father used to wear mechanicals when I was a child, and I like the warm memories of him I get whenever I hear the "tick tick tick tick tick" of a mechanical.

I buy quartz because they appeal to the practical side of me. They are cheaper, more accurate, and can be used HARD. I can lend one out to a friend and not care if it is being taken care of.

If I ever need someone’s opinion to help justify a purchase, I know I made the wrong decision.

Brian
 
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