Question for Wicked Edge users - grit progression

Joined
Feb 11, 2012
Messages
494
Hiya Wicked Edge folks,

I'm sort of eyeing one of them systems, but not entirely decided on what stones/strops/pastes etc to get for it. So I figured I'd inquire about what type of progression you guys are using and what results it yields. I've often seen lots of pictures of fantastically mirrored edges which are very alluring, but are they achieved with the basic kit?

For example, the 14/10 micron strop seems a bit redundant, or is it too big a jump to go to 5/3.5 from the 1600 stones?

Fill me in on your secrets!
 
I dont know if you need to go much past 14/10m. I can get my blades mirror finished at 14/10m. That being said, I just used the last of both my 14 and 10 paste tubes and I picked up some 5m paste locally. I will be going right from my finest stone into the leather strops with 5m. It shouldnt be a problem. I wouldnt try it on a $500 Busse though.. practice on something cheaper just to be sure.
 
I dont know if you need to go much past 14/10m. I can get my blades mirror finished at 14/10m. That being said, I just used the last of both my 14 and 10 paste tubes and I picked up some 5m paste locally. I will be going right from my finest stone into the leather strops with 5m. It shouldnt be a problem. I wouldnt try it on a $500 Busse though.. practice on something cheaper just to be sure.

What stones are you using?
 
The basic kit with get you a perfectly beveled, very sharp edge. But not a mirrored edge. Mirrored edges look nice and perform very well, but are difficult and time-consuming to maintain. I personally, like to progress 100, 200, 400, 600, 800, 1,000 on the diamonds and then 1,200 and 1,600 on the ceramics. The strops I just use to finish off what is left of the burr. This progression gives a refined edge, but not a mirrored edge. But once the primary bevel is set with the first stones, the rest goes fast.

You can get tapes (stick them to the ceramic stones) to run through 6,000 grit for the mirrored edge, but you have to pay much more attention to progression and it takes a lot more time. And because I used my EDC every day, it's not worth the effort.
 
I agree with twindog. The basic kit will yield very sharp edges. To attain the stupid sharp mirrored edges takes additional time and stones/strops. I use the 400/600 then 800/1k diamonds then the 1200/1600 ceramics then the 5/3.5 micron balsa and then 1 micron on leather strops. I dont use the 14/10 micron strops. Takes a little bit of a learning curve to get the allignment and "feedback" as you work but the results are a perfectly beveled mirrored edge some call it a vanity edge.
 
I agree with twindog. The basic kit will yield very sharp edges. To attain the stupid sharp mirrored edges takes additional time and stones/strops. I use the 400/600 then 800/1k diamonds then the 1200/1600 ceramics then the 5/3.5 micron balsa and then 1 micron on leather strops. I dont use the 14/10 micron strops. Takes a little bit of a learning curve to get the allignment and "feedback" as you work but the results are a perfectly beveled mirrored edge some call it a vanity edge.

I'm not under any false assumptions that the edge will turn into some magic super cutter. I just love pretty results and improving at keeping my knives tip top! My Sharpmaker gets the knives plenty sharp, but I just feel there is another degree out there that I'm not really touching on :D I'll probably keep improving at freehanding on the mousepad/sandpaper for my larger blades, but it's just too alluring to have pretty mirrored edges on my folders to not get the WEPS :rolleyes:
 
I agree with what has been said. The basic kit will most certainly get you to a mirrored edge. You also might think stropping more and more and more will make it shiny, but if you see scratches, the strops will not get them out for the most part. You pretty much have to get all of the scratches out and get an almost semi-mirrored hazy edge with the stones/ceramics before going to the strops, otherwise you will have an edge that will be sort of mirrored in the sense that it's pretty shiny and reflective, but with scratches in it. To get good mirror edges, you need to take your time. It can take an hour or two in many cases. I use different techniques and start from heavier to very light pressure with EACH grit/strop and you need to get all of the scratches of the previous grit out with the next grit. If you go too quickly, you'll have scratches from earlier grits that the grits more than one progressive grit beyond that can't get out (if that makes sense. 200 can remove the scratches of 100, but 400 may not be able to remove the deeper scratches left by 100, for example.

I go 100, 200, 400, 600, 800, 1000, 1200 ceramic, 1600 ceramic, 15/10 micron, 5/3.5 micron and with good technique (and mixed technique as well as pressure) as well as good setup, I can get some outstanding edges and the scratches are hard to see. Still, there are scratches in an almost perfect mirror finish that you can see if you look close enough. It's what most people would call perfect, but there's a reason you can spend hundreds of dollars on stones in the 30,000 grit levels and beyond. I think I could get rid of all of the scratches that the naked eye can see if I went up to 2000 or so, though. However, keep in mind that you won't get very nice mirror edges until you have sharpened a good amount of knives because the stones take a while to break in and leave much deeper scratches at first. Still, that's probably good because your technique will probably not be all that great until you've broken them in anyway.

Again, the strops themselves won't really remove the individual scratches that are big/deep enough to see with the naked eye. That's something I learned the hard way. I thought I just had to strop for hours and hours to slowly polish away the scratches. They just smooth away the micro scratches left by 1000+ grits. They sort of "clean" the edge and brighten up more and more and "blend" it. And they won't even really do that to complete perfection (to the naked eye) until more like 2000+ stones have been used.

Mirrored edges are really cool and look great when done well. I like them because they won't actually cut skin nearly as easy as a toothy edge but they can still get sharper and they hold the edge for the longest time because there aren't as large of "teeth" like on a toothy edge, which quickly get bent and deformed and make the edge duller. I like them for those reasons. However, I find the sharpest edges come from quickly running it over a strop by hand with some 1, .5, or .25 diamond spray. I have a balsa strop with 1 micron Hand American diamond spray and it's much more aggressive than the paste. I strop the edge almost as if I were trying to apply a micro-bevel, so I'm mostly just stropping the apex of the edge. The aggressive diamonds, even though they're finer than the 5/3.5 micron diamond paste strops on the Wicked Edge (which leave a smooth/non-toothy edge), leave an edge that actually feels a little toothy. It makes it as sharp as can be, to where I can literally whittle hair. It will split a hair down the middle. Since you can hold the knife at a more obtuse angle when doing it by hand, this is my last step and although it doesn't polish the edge much more, it just gives it that extra sharpness and adds a bit of "bite" back to the edge that a semi toothy edge has, yet you get the benefits and looks of a mirrored edge. And it still won't dull nor cut skin as easily as an actually toothy edge. It doesn't quite "feel" as sharp in the same way.

Anyway, I hope that helps. Be patient and take your time and really work on technique. Try to perfectly mirror the stroke of your "good" hand (your dominant hand) with the stroke of your other hand. You might have perfect technique with your good hand, but even veterans like Smokeeater908 often have poor technique with their other hand and just push straight forward and round the tip, etc. Try to pay good attention to technique and learn to have consistent technique with both hands. Also make sure that you're always apexing the edge, even when you're pressing lightly. Don't start moving up through the stones before you've used the 50 or 100's to reprofile to where you hit the apex all along the edge. This will mean holding the paddles correctly (as close to the top as possible) if you have the old arms, or get the WEPS with the new ball joint arms. I recommend getting the new arms because the biggest problem people have with the WEPS is not getting sharp edges because of the play in the arms. You have to know how to use them to hit the apex with every stroke. But yeah, other than that, just be patient and break in the stones. Don't give up and don't be sloppy!
 
I agree with what has been said. The basic kit will most certainly get you to a mirrored edge. You also might think stropping more and more and more will make it shiny, but if you see scratches, the strops will not get them out for the most part. You pretty much have to get all of the scratches out and get an almost semi-mirrored hazy edge with the stones/ceramics before going to the strops, otherwise you will have an edge that will be sort of mirrored in the sense that it's pretty shiny and reflective, but with scratches in it. To get good mirror edges, you need to take your time. It can take an hour or two in many cases. I use different techniques and start from heavier to very light pressure with EACH grit/strop and you need to get all of the scratches of the previous grit out with the next grit. If you go too quickly, you'll have scratches from earlier grits that the grits more than one progressive grit beyond that can't get out (if that makes sense. 200 can remove the scratches of 100, but 400 may not be able to remove the deeper scratches left by 100, for example.

I go 100, 200, 400, 600, 800, 1000, 1200 ceramic, 1600 ceramic, 15/10 micron, 5/3.5 micron and with good technique (and mixed technique as well as pressure) as well as good setup, I can get some outstanding edges and the scratches are hard to see. Still, there are scratches in an almost perfect mirror finish that you can see if you look close enough. It's what most people would call perfect, but there's a reason you can spend hundreds of dollars on stones in the 30,000 grit levels and beyond. I think I could get rid of all of the scratches that the naked eye can see if I went up to 2000 or so, though. However, keep in mind that you won't get very nice mirror edges until you have sharpened a good amount of knives because the stones take a while to break in and leave much deeper scratches at first. Still, that's probably good because your technique will probably not be all that great until you've broken them in anyway.

Again, the strops themselves won't really remove the individual scratches that are big/deep enough to see with the naked eye. That's something I learned the hard way. I thought I just had to strop for hours and hours to slowly polish away the scratches. They just smooth away the micro scratches left by 1000+ grits. They sort of "clean" the edge and brighten up more and more and "blend" it. And they won't even really do that to complete perfection (to the naked eye) until more like 2000+ stones have been used.

Mirrored edges are really cool and look great when done well. I like them because they won't actually cut skin nearly as easy as a toothy edge but they can still get sharper and they hold the edge for the longest time because there aren't as large of "teeth" like on a toothy edge, which quickly get bent and deformed and make the edge duller. I like them for those reasons. However, I find the sharpest edges come from quickly running it over a strop by hand with some 1, .5, or .25 diamond spray. I have a balsa strop with 1 micron Hand American diamond spray and it's much more aggressive than the paste. I strop the edge almost as if I were trying to apply a micro-bevel, so I'm mostly just stropping the apex of the edge. The aggressive diamonds, even though they're finer than the 5/3.5 micron diamond paste strops on the Wicked Edge (which leave a smooth/non-toothy edge), leave an edge that actually feels a little toothy. It makes it as sharp as can be, to where I can literally whittle hair. It will split a hair down the middle. Since you can hold the knife at a more obtuse angle when doing it by hand, this is my last step and although it doesn't polish the edge much more, it just gives it that extra sharpness and adds a bit of "bite" back to the edge that a semi toothy edge has, yet you get the benefits and looks of a mirrored edge. And it still won't dull nor cut skin as easily as an actually toothy edge. It doesn't quite "feel" as sharp in the same way.

Anyway, I hope that helps. Be patient and take your time and really work on technique. Try to perfectly mirror the stroke of your "good" hand (your dominant hand) with the stroke of your other hand. You might have perfect technique with your good hand, but even veterans like Smokeeater908 often have poor technique with their other hand and just push straight forward and round the tip, etc. Try to pay good attention to technique and learn to have consistent technique with both hands. Also make sure that you're always apexing the edge, even when you're pressing lightly. Don't start moving up through the stones before you've used the 50 or 100's to reprofile to where you hit the apex all along the edge. This will mean holding the paddles correctly (as close to the top as possible) if you have the old arms, or get the WEPS with the new ball joint arms. I recommend getting the new arms because the biggest problem people have with the WEPS is not getting sharp edges because of the play in the arms. You have to know how to use them to hit the apex with every stroke. But yeah, other than that, just be patient and break in the stones. Don't give up and don't be sloppy!

Thanks for the post! That was a lot of really helpful information. I've watched a lot of jdavis vids, and he specifically mentions the play in the arms and how they were leaving him a bit perplexed because he wasn't getting the edge he expected. Have the new arms actually been released in any of the systems that the dealers are selling? I believe jdavis mentions that Clay had sent him a new pair of arms, but were those prototypes or?

I had actually also been looking at the hand american diamond spray, several sources have described exactly what you just did. Darn intriguing!
 
Thanks for the post! That was a lot of really helpful information. I've watched a lot of jdavis vids, and he specifically mentions the play in the arms and how they were leaving him a bit perplexed because he wasn't getting the edge he expected. Have the new arms actually been released in any of the systems that the dealers are selling? I believe jdavis mentions that Clay had sent him a new pair of arms, but were those prototypes or?

I had actually also been looking at the hand american diamond spray, several sources have described exactly what you just did. Darn intriguing!

The new arms have gone into production now, but I don't think they're out and available everywhere now. JDavis did get prototype or preproduction ones, I think, but the new ones are actually slightly better, supposedly. They're supposed to have slightly thicker arms so that they perfectly fit in the holes of the paddles without any play, for one thing. Wicked Edge is based out of Santa Fe, New Mexico and there's a great supplier there in Santa Fe that works closely with Clay called Oldawan who has the new arms. They are pretty much the only supplier who sells EVERYTHING Wicked Edge related. They have a VERY complete inventory. I met them at a show here in Las Vegas and they are very good people. I got to check out the new arms in person and they're great. I also bought from them the 1200/1600 grit ceramic stones, which I believe are available nowhere else right now. There is some sort of problem with the supplier that produces the ceramics and Wicked Edge is trying to resolve it, but until then, the ceramics are getting scarce. I think Oldawan is the only place with the ceramics and they were the first place to start selling the new arms now that they're in production. If you need anything for the Wicked Edge that's not shown on their website, just contact them, because they probably still have it. Same with the new arms, they have them but they're not actually shown on the website last I checked. I would recommend getting your WEPS from them and anything else you might need, because they're a great company. I think the arms are $120 and for $20 or $30 more you can get a package deal with an Angle Cube. I really recommend getting an Angle Cube to make sure you're getting consistent angles on both sides. The new arms also have a micro adjustment and the angle cube will allow you to get EXACT angles on each side, which you can't do with the regular arms. Another thing I use the Angle Cube for is to set it to zero degrees when flat on my base, then I set it flat on my edge and angle the knife so that it is perfectly flat relative to the base. This allows you to get the most consistent looking bevel width possible. Otherwise, you will generally get a bevel that widens toward the tip. Anyway, good luck!
 
The new arms have gone into production now, but I don't think they're out and available everywhere now. JDavis did get prototype or preproduction ones, I think, but the new ones are actually slightly better, supposedly. They're supposed to have slightly thicker arms so that they perfectly fit in the holes of the paddles without any play, for one thing. Wicked Edge is based out of Santa Fe, New Mexico and there's a great supplier there in Santa Fe that works closely with Clay called Oldawan who has the new arms. They are pretty much the only supplier who sells EVERYTHING Wicked Edge related. They have a VERY complete inventory. I met them at a show here in Las Vegas and they are very good people. I got to check out the new arms in person and they're great. I also bought from them the 1200/1600 grit ceramic stones, which I believe are available nowhere else right now. There is some sort of problem with the supplier that produces the ceramics and Wicked Edge is trying to resolve it, but until then, the ceramics are getting scarce. I think Oldawan is the only place with the ceramics and they were the first place to start selling the new arms now that they're in production. If you need anything for the Wicked Edge that's not shown on their website, just contact them, because they probably still have it. Same with the new arms, they have them but they're not actually shown on the website last I checked. I would recommend getting your WEPS from them and anything else you might need, because they're a great company. I think the arms are $120 and for $20 or $30 more you can get a package deal with an Angle Cube. I really recommend getting an Angle Cube to make sure you're getting consistent angles on both sides. The new arms also have a micro adjustment and the angle cube will allow you to get EXACT angles on each side, which you can't do with the regular arms. Another thing I use the Angle Cube for is to set it to zero degrees when flat on my base, then I set it flat on my edge and angle the knife so that it is perfectly flat relative to the base. This allows you to get the most consistent looking bevel width possible. Otherwise, you will generally get a bevel that widens toward the tip. Anyway, good luck!

I sent an email to Oldawan, hopefully we'll be able to work something out :) I'm extremely anxious to try it out!

Thank you for all your help, there would have been no way on earth I would have found Oldawan otherwise!
 
I sent an email to Oldawan, hopefully we'll be able to work something out :) I'm extremely anxious to try it out!

Thank you for all your help, there would have been no way on earth I would have found Oldawan otherwise!

No problem. It's kind of weird, they seem to be the most complete Wicked Edge supplier of all (they had their booth at the USN Gathering STUFFED with WEPS's and tons of accessories) and they seem to work hand in hand with Wicked Edge in the same city, yet I had never heard of them either. I only found out about them when I saw them at the show and talked to them. They did have the new arms right there in stock and ready to hand over to me, but I had just spent a thousand dollars on a couple of knives and I decided to just get the ceramics and call it a day :)
 
Well, just thought I'd give a little update and ask a question. I've more or less got my order sorted out with Oldawan, just waiting for them to get more parts in.

My question is regarding setting the angle of the bevel, how does one know that 30 deg. inclusive is in fact correct when the knife blade itself can be either lowered or raised with the stop pin? I guess with the angle cube this is a non-issue, but how does one make sure of this without it?

If I need to elaborate on the question, let me know.
 
Well, just thought I'd give a little update and ask a question. I've more or less got my order sorted out with Oldawan, just waiting for them to get more parts in.

My question is regarding setting the angle of the bevel, how does one know that 30 deg. inclusive is in fact correct when the knife blade itself can be either lowered or raised with the stop pin? I guess with the angle cube this is a non-issue, but how does one make sure of this without it?

If I need to elaborate on the question, let me know.
If you have an iphone download the angle app. I've not noticed a difference when putting the knife in the lower or upper pins, just make sure you use the same setting every time.
As far as mirror finish goes, I always go from 100 grit to 1600 grit then tape on 1500, 2000, 2500 grit sandpaper from AutoZone then strop with 5 & 3.5 then 1 micron, then sub microns.
I could not get a true scratch free with the naked eye finish using just the pro pack, nor could I when I added the ceramics, the sandpaper did the trick for me.
 
I figured I might as well ask here so I'm prepared for when the WE arrives. Is there anyone that has made their own base for the WE? I don't really know how the mounting of it works, but I figured it can't be too complicated so I opted out of ordering the base to save on shipping costs to Sweden. It seemed unnecessary to add the extra bulk, but now I'm kind of worried I might be too unhandy to make my own :rolleyes:
 
I figured I might as well ask here so I'm prepared for when the WE arrives. Is there anyone that has made their own base for the WE? I don't really know how the mounting of it works, but I figured it can't be too complicated so I opted out of ordering the base to save on shipping costs to Sweden. It seemed unnecessary to add the extra bulk, but now I'm kind of worried I might be too unhandy to make my own :rolleyes:

It comes with instructions and a paper template thats shows where to mark to drill the holes, in whatever you choose for a base.
 
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