Question from a Newbie - Arkansas Stones

[EpicHam]

So I've been scooping around looking at sharpening systems and I found out this thing called Arkansas stone (yes, I'm green as a lime) .

After doing a little research I found out that .. hey!
They also use the same grit system. Behind all the fancy names , Soft Arkansas , Hard Arkansas and Hard Translucent .

I'll think they should be pretty similar in performance with other stones of the same grit right?
For example , a 1000 grit Arkansas should do the job just as well as a 1000 grit India stone right ? And a 1000 grit India stone will sharpen just as well as a 1000 grit diamond... right?? I mean.. they are the same coarseness after all...
Or is it?

I've found out that on the Lansky site , the Arkansas systems sells a lot higher per stone than the man-made Alumina-oxide stuff...
So there has to be a reason .... besides from the stone maintenance reason

[video=youtube;2v80nevB8ho]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2v80nevB8ho[/video]
So... what else affects how polished the edge can be beside from grit?

 

[mtangent]

They are all different.
Performance is affected by particle size, shape, hardness, & the way they are packed together.
Diamond is aggressive, compared to other substances of the same grit.
Arkansas is less aggressive, & leaves a more polished appearance.
The medium & fine Spyderco ceramics are apparently exactly the same particles, just packed differently.

 

[EpicHam]

They are all different.
Performance is affected by particle size, shape, hardness, & the way they are packed together.
Diamond is aggressive, compared to other substances of the same grit.
Arkansas is less aggressive, & leaves a more polished appearance.
The medium & fine Spyderco ceramics are apparently exactly the same particles, just packed differently.

So what do I use to get edges like this?

Instead of this?

 

[mtangent]

Ha ha Ha.
You have started a quest for the perfect edge, whether you know it or not.
There are many methods, many variables. You can spend weeks looking at threads in this forum discussing this exact topic.

You could buy a system such as Wicked edge, which may give you the results faster.
Another way is to do it by hand on various stones & strops. This will take longer to develop the skills.

Enjoy your journey.

I am not capable of creating edges like those, but that is not what drives me. From this point on, the advice of others will be more valuable. But there are plenty of old threads, do some reading.

 

[EpicHam]

Ha ha Ha.
You have started a quest for the perfect edge, whether you know it or not.
There are many methods, many variables. You can spend weeks looking at threads in this forum discussing this exact topic.

You could buy a system such as Wicked edge, which may give you the results faster.
Another way is to do it by hand on various stones & strops. This will take longer to develop the skills.

Enjoy your journey.

I am not capable of creating edges like those, but that is not what drives me. From this point on, the advice of others will be more valuable. But there are plenty of old threads, do some reading.

well!
To the salt mines for me I guess

 

[Cynic2701]

Epicham, here's an older post about my Caly 3.5:

The Caly 3.5 is a very good EDC. I prefer the ZDP-189 version over the VG-10 version, as it can take and hold a more acute edge.

Between the Caly 3 and the 3.5 I think that the 3.5 wins hands down. I do still keep my CF/ZDP Caly 3 because it has a smaller, more people friendly blade, and because my Dad bought it for me.

Here's a few pics of my 3.5 that I've taken down to 20 degrees inclusive:

I used the following to sharpen it:

Atoma 140 on an Edge Pro
DMT Coarse free hand
Shapton Pro 1000
Shapton Pro 2000
Shapton Pro 5000
6 Micron DMT paste on strop
3 Micron DMT paste on strop
1 Micron DMT paste on strop
0.5 Micron diamond spray on strop

 

[Rennd]

Strops, strops, strops. Those are how you get polished edges like that.

 

[pmeisel]

The least expensive and coarsest stones are Crystalon -- silicon carbide. Good for reprofiling, garden tools, etc. Works fast but not fine. Up to about 240 grit, or 60 microns.

Next -- India stones. Aluminum oxide. A little finer than Crystalon, fine India goes to about 320 or about 40 microns.

Then Arkansas stones. Soft will get you around 600-800 grit or 20-25 microns. Hard , not exactly sure on grit but maybe 10-15 microns. Translucent a little finer.

Diamonds come in a wide range from coarse 220, to 1200 and even finer. I think the new EEF DMT is about 3 microns....

Waterstones can be finer than that.

Just getting started? A fine India stone should be first, it will get an edge on a knife that doesn't have a good one. A soft Arkansas should be second. After that, it's how bad the bug bites you.

Of course my opinion is worth just what I charged you for it.....

 

[EpicHam]

Alright .... not sure if this is good but from what I've read so far , I've got a plan.
I'm gonna buy 3 Arkansas stone (cos I already have a silicon carbide one that ended up scratching my blade raw)
Soft Arkansas , Hard Arkansas , Hard translucent Arkansas and finally a leather stropping hone with some diamond paste (what grade tho? they go all the way from 0.25 to 90 micron. Does 1 micron sound good?)

That should give me a mirror polish right?

Epicham, here's an older post about my Caly 3.5:



I used the following to sharpen it:

Atoma 140 on an Edge Pro
DMT Coarse free hand
Shapton Pro 1000
Shapton Pro 2000
Shapton Pro 5000
6 Micron DMT paste on strop
3 Micron DMT paste on strop
1 Micron DMT paste on strop
0.5 Micron diamond spray on strop

oh lordy
That's a LOT of pastes.
these pastes are like $15 a pop , and they only comes in 5ml
My wallet is gonna get butchered !
Do I REALLY need so many different grades?

 

[Bob6794]

Alright .... not sure if this is good but from what I've read so far , I've got a plan.
I'm gonna buy 3 Arkansas stone (cos I already have a silicon carbide one that ended up scratching my blade raw)
Soft Arkansas , Hard Arkansas , Hard translucent Arkansas and finally a leather stropping hone with some diamond paste (what grade tho? they go all the way from 0.25 to 90 micron. Does 1 micron sound good?)

That should give me a mirror polish right?



oh lordy
That's a LOT of pastes.
these pastes are like $15 a pop , and they only comes in 5ml
My wallet is gonna get butchered !
Do I REALLY need so many different grades?

Boy you have no idea what lies down that road you want to walk down on for that mirror polish do you? And you didn't take a look at how expensive the stones that he used did you, or the fact that if your going that far into this you may be bouncing around between multiple stones to find a setup you like. May god have mercy on your wallet .

Now all the kidding aside, if your just getting into this you may want to ignore the mirror polish for now and just work on your technique for now. Than add onto your setup and work towards that mirror polish. I'm still relatively new to taking this whole sharpening thing seriously but if I were to chase a mirror polish now all it accomplish is adding a whole lot of pain and frustration and chances are I won't be focusing on getting the sharpest edge anymore but a pretty one.

And to get that nice mirror polish freehand, from my limited time hanging around this sub-forum it seems to be based on a lot of skill more than anything else when it comes to sharpening. Some of the people here can do some pretty amazing things with just sandpaper, mousepad, and some strops. Where as others will use stones, guided systems, etc to achieve the same results. The trick is you have to find what works for you.

Here is what one guy uses for his setup, he also makes some great videos to watch on how to free hand sharpen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtsDPVohg1k&list=PLB95E1C271CE6654B&index=50
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8dddN6ZyBW6sCsvfiDVsqw

EDITED IN:
Oh yeah the pastes are relatively cheap actually in comparison to a lot of other things. You can pick up the pack of them for under $30 instead of buying individually.
http://www2.knifecenter.com/item/DMTDPK/DMT-DPK-Dia-Paste-Diamond-Compound-Kit-of-1-3-and-6-Micron

 

[Cynic2701]

Alright .... not sure if this is good but from what I've read so far , I've got a plan.
I'm gonna buy 3 Arkansas stone (cos I already have a silicon carbide one that ended up scratching my blade raw)
Soft Arkansas , Hard Arkansas , Hard translucent Arkansas and finally a leather stropping hone with some diamond paste (what grade tho? they go all the way from 0.25 to 90 micron. Does 1 micron sound good?)

That should give me a mirror polish right?



oh lordy
That's a LOT of pastes.
these pastes are like $15 a pop , and they only comes in 5ml
My wallet is gonna get butchered !
Do I REALLY need so many different grades?

I was able to find a 3-pack (the 6/3/1 DMT diamond paste) on sale for ~$22. The 0.5 micron diamond spray was on sale for ~$27 shipped. Strop materials are pretty cheap: just some leather, super glue, and balsa wood.

The more expensive stuff, as Bob6794 mentioned, would be the stones.

I currently use the following setup:

Atoma 140 Free hand or Edge Pro
DMT Coarse
Chosera 400
Shapton Pro 1000
Shapton Pro 2000
Shapton Glass 4000
Naniwa Jyunpaku (Snow White 8k)
1 Micron DMT paste on strop
0.5 Micron DMT spray on strop

The reason that there are so many "steps" is because you need both a tight progression and you need to spend enough time at each "step" to remove the scratches from the previous "step" in the progression. By keeping the micron grit jump between stones no more than about 1/2 or 1/3 each time (except for the jump on the coarse end from the Atoma 140) you can get good results.

You can use all sorts of different equipment to get there (of varying levels of cost) as long as the progression is sound. The more expensive stuff, though, does work faster and makes your job much easier.

 

[EpicHam]

but if I were to chase a mirror polish now all it accomplish is adding a whole lot of pain and frustration and chances are I won't be focusing on getting the sharpest edge anymore but a pretty one.

Wait a momento...
Shouldn't all mirror finished edge be already lightsaber sharp ?
I mean... all the gnats and nasty stuff are gone from the edge right?

I was able to find a 3-pack (the 6/3/1 DMT diamond paste) on sale for ~$22. The 0.5 micron diamond spray was on sale for ~$27 shipped. Strop materials are pretty cheap: just some leather, super glue, and balsa wood.

The more expensive stuff, as Bob6794 mentioned, would be the stones.

I currently use the following setup:

Atoma 140 Free hand or Edge Pro
DMT Coarse
Chosera 400
Shapton Pro 1000
Shapton Pro 2000
Shapton Glass 4000
Naniwa Jyunpaku (Snow White 8k)
1 Micron DMT paste on strop
0.5 Micron DMT spray on strop

The reason that there are so many "steps" is because you need both a tight progression and you need to spend enough time at each "step" to remove the scratches from the previous "step" in the progression. By keeping the micron grit jump between stones no more than about 1/2 or 1/3 each time (except for the jump on the coarse end from the Atoma 140) you can get good results.

You can use all sorts of different equipment to get there (of varying levels of cost) as long as the progression is sound. The more expensive stuff, though, does work faster and makes your job much easier.

Alrighty then , so the key is a progression of grit , and stone type.
So... I should start on the silicon carbide monster , then move onto the india stones , then the arkansas , and then wait a minute..... 4000 GRIT????
4000 ????
That's like 5ish microns!
WOW!!!
Water stones started sounding a LOT more appealing!

 

[Cynic2701]

There is a great unified grit chart in the stickies. The Chosera 400 is the microns, the Shapton Pro 1000 is 14.7 microns, the 2000 is 7.35 microns, the 4000 is 3.68 micron, and the Jyunpaku around 1.8 micron.

 

[Bob6794]

Wait a momento...
Shouldn't all mirror finished edge be already lightsaber sharp ?
I mean... all the gnats and nasty stuff are gone from the edge right?

Read this, it will give you a lot of information.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1014274-What-is-sharpening-a-knife-about

This is from the first 2 paragraphs

But before you read it just know refinement is moving up in grits towards that mirror polish to put it simply. Sharpness is being able to push cut paper, whittle hair, etc. Their not the same, you can achieve sharpness on a course stone. On the other hand you can have a mirror polish but can't push cut paper to save your life.

What is sharpening a knife really about?

What is sharpening a knife really about? Simply put, it's about forming a clean, new edge (i.e., apexing the edge and removing the burr). When I first tried my hand at freehand sharpening, I would work on the stones forever, going all the way up to the Spyderco Ultrafine bench stone until the bevel would be polished like a mirror. I’d look at it in the light and be very proud. Wow, did it glimmer! Then I'd try to cut a piece of heavy stock copy paper (which, by the way, is the easiest paper to cut)... and the edge wouldn't cut it… my mirror-polished bevel was duller than my Ikea butter knives. And I got so frustrated, I’d want to cry. It took quite a while for me to understand what was going on between the stone and the edge. Fundamentally, I didn't understand that there were things I should have been watching for… carefully… like a hawk. I thought it was a math game: "5 strokes this direction, 5 strokes this direction... whew... I’ve been at this for a while, so I guess it’s time to move to the next stone." To the contrary, moving on to the next stone is about knowing *when* to do it. (explained below in the section "How do you know how long to sharpen and when to move to the next stone?")


Refinement vs. Sharpness

Sharpness does not equal refinement. They are not the same thing, at all. In fact, they are two different things. Related, but different. You can get a push-cutting edge on a DMT coarse stone if the edge is apexed and the burr removed. The bevel will look like you took an old rusty file from grandpa’s shop and attacked your knife… but it will push cut paper. Why? Again, because sharpness is not about refinement. It’s about apexing the edge and removing the burr. So what is refinement? Refinement is about making that apexed edge smoother and less toothy, but it doesn’t really affect sharpness. So why do we refine an edge? Why not just finish on one coarse stone? The reason why is because the coarse stone leaves an extremely toothy and jagged edge which will deform easily and dull quickly. People refine edges to get a cleaner, smoother, longer-lasting cutting edge. The extreme example would be a straight razor polished by a honemeister. You see, even though you can get a scary sharp edge off of a 1k stone, it won’t shave smoothly (i.e., it will irritate your face). You need to go to 16k, or 30k, or JNats, or Belgium Coticules to smooth that edge out to the point it’s like glass and doesn’t irritate the skin. That’s refinement. Not sharpness.

- Mag

Refinement is that mirror polish you seek. Being able to push cut newspaper, whittle hair, etc is sharpness. My advice get good at sharpening your knife first than chase that level of refinement you want which is that mirror polish, it's pointless to focus on a mirror polish before having a sharp blade in my opinion. What good is a knife if it can't cut, but it looks pretty.

Here's another thing to think about too, some people prefer finishing off their knives at a lower grit to get a more toothy edge to it. I can tell you depending on what knife I am using I may actually prefer finishing off on my DMT Fine instead of Extra Fine but I still take it up that high for the extra practice for now. And other knives the thought of stopping at Fine makes me cringe. The level of refinement that suits your needs and enjoy is different for each person, you don't know what you like till you try it.

 

[HeavyHanded]

Maybe add to the above re edge finish:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...gression!?highlight=help+with+edge+aggression

Depending on the chore there can be substantial gains in cutting efficiency when a well considered finish is used vs assuming there's one edge type that will outperform all others. Pressure is the #1 killer of edges, whatever edge finish allows the item in question to be cut with a minimum of pressure will generally last longer and perform with less effort...In my humble opinion.

 

[Bob6794]

One thing that helped me a lot is when I got my new sharpening setup is I am now using all one type of stone and dimensions, which is the 4in DMT duosharp stones from the aligner which aren't ideal with the small size but it's nice having one setup. Prior to that I was using a mix of different things, 400grit diamond rod for serrations which I occasionally sharpened with, 600 grit curved handheld diamond, 2 sharpening steels 1 diamond and 1 ceramic, and cardboard as a strop. That alone helped me improve my sharpening ability several fold in no time as I wasn't bouncing around between several things.

If you can try to stick to same type and size of materials initially so when your working your way through the grits it feels familiar instead of feeling like your trying to learn the characteristics of several things at once. It should hopefully lessen the time in the learning process.

 

[Cynic2701]

Wait a momento...
Shouldn't all mirror finished edge be already lightsaber sharp ?
I mean... all the gnats and nasty stuff are gone from the edge right?




Alrighty then , so the key is a progression of grit , and stone type.
So... I should start on the silicon carbide monster , then move onto the india stones , then the arkansas , and then wait a minute..... 4000 GRIT????
4000 ????
That's like 5ish microns!
WOW!!!
Water stones started sounding a LOT more appealing!

A mirror finish is just that--a finish. The edge itself may not be properly apexed or consistently formed along the entire edge. While, in general, it is probably true that those who can achieve a mirror finish can also achieve hair whittling sharpness, they aren't necessarily coterminous.

It also depends on what steel your knife is, as high carbide volume steels tend to do better with coarser edges than low alloy steels. S90V, for example, seems to be best in the 12 - 16 micron range while Aogami Super or a White #1 might be best in sub-micron ranges on a yanagiba in the kitchen. It really depends on your uses.

 

[EpicHam]

Maybe add to the above re edge finish:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...gression!?highlight=help+with+edge+aggression

Depending on the chore there can be substantial gains in cutting efficiency when a well considered finish is used vs assuming there's one edge type that will outperform all others. Pressure is the #1 killer of edges, whatever edge finish allows the item in question to be cut with a minimum of pressure will generally last longer and perform with less effort...In my humble opinion.

Sweet ! I see I got a lot of reading up and practicing to do here

Read this, it will give you a lot of information.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1014274-What-is-sharpening-a-knife-about

This is from the first 2 paragraphs

But before you read it just know refinement is moving up in grits towards that mirror polish to put it simply. Sharpness is being able to push cut paper, whittle hair, etc. Their not the same, you can achieve sharpness on a course stone. On the other hand you can have a mirror polish but can't push cut paper to save your life.



Refinement is that mirror polish you seek. Being able to push cut newspaper, whittle hair, etc is sharpness. My advice get good at sharpening your knife first than chase that level of refinement you want which is that mirror polish, it's pointless to focus on a mirror polish before having a sharp blade in my opinion. What good is a knife if it can't cut, but it looks pretty.

Here's another thing to think about too, some people prefer finishing off their knives at a lower grit to get a more toothy edge to it. I can tell you depending on what knife I am using I may actually prefer finishing off on my DMT Fine instead of Extra Fine but I still take it up that high for the extra practice for now. And other knives the thought of stopping at Fine makes me cringe. The level of refinement that suits your needs and enjoy is different for each person, you don't know what you like till you try it.

A toothy edge? So as in making mini-serrations along the edge? So you pretty much have to get the blade under a microscope to tell huh ?

So basically , this is the case for refiness and sharpness ?

A mirror finish is just that--a finish. The edge itself may not be properly apexed or consistently formed along the entire edge. While, in general, it is probably true that those who can achieve a mirror finish can also achieve hair whittling sharpness, they aren't necessarily coterminous.

It also depends on what steel your knife is, as high carbide volume steels tend to do better with coarser edges than low alloy steels. S90V, for example, seems to be best in the 12 - 16 micron range while Aogami Super or a White #1 might be best in sub-micron ranges on a yanagiba in the kitchen. It really depends on your uses.

Well seeing that most knives now are using high carbon from 1095 and up , would an oil stone be able to handle it? What about water stones? I was testing my hands on a random ceramic earlier (no idea what grit it is), spent almost an entire hour on it , and all it did was dull my blade , still trying to get pass the factory edge so I can reprofile it to a full flat grind.

One thing that helped me a lot is when I got my new sharpening setup is I am now using all one type of stone and dimensions, which is the 4in DMT duosharp stones from the aligner which aren't ideal with the small size but it's nice having one setup. Prior to that I was using a mix of different things, 400grit diamond rod for serrations which I occasionally sharpened with, 600 grit curved handheld diamond, 2 sharpening steels 1 diamond and 1 ceramic, and cardboard as a strop. That alone helped me improve my sharpening ability several fold in no time as I wasn't bouncing around between several things.

If you can try to stick to same type and size of materials initially so when your working your way through the grits it feels familiar instead of feeling like your trying to learn the characteristics of several things at once. It should hopefully lessen the time in the learning process.

Will do!! Just gotta figure out which type of stones to buy at first.

 

[smokinbasser]

As a retired jet engine mechanical tech we were issued hard Arkansas stones to blend Foreign Object Damage to the compressor blades and inlet fan blades to smooth the air flow into the engine . They also can put a fine edge on knife blades too.

 

[EpicHam]

As a retired jet engine mechanical tech we were issued hard Arkansas stones to blend Foreign Object Damage to the compressor blades and inlet fan blades to smooth the air flow into the engine . They also can put a fine edge on knife blades too.

Well!
If its good enough for a jet engine , its good enough for knives :thumbup: