Question from a Newbie - Arkansas Stones

[Cynic2701]

Sweet ! I see I got a lot of reading up and practicing to do here



A toothy edge? So as in making mini-serrations along the edge? So you pretty much have to get the blade under a microscope to tell huh ?

So basically , this is the case for refiness and sharpness ?

Well seeing that most knives now are using high carbon from 1095 and up , would an oil stone be able to handle it? What about water stones? I was testing my hands on a random ceramic earlier (no idea what grit it is), spent almost an entire hour on it , and all it did was dull my blade , still trying to get pass the factory edge so I can reprofile it to a full flat grind.

Sometimes a "toothier" edge is more useful when cutting certain material (e.g. plastic wrap, rope, etc.) while a more refined edge is better at cutting other things (fish, wood, etc). It really does depend on what your uses are.

I haven't sharpened on Arkansas stones before, but I would imagine that they are going to have a hard time (as natural stones tend to) on steels with high vanadium contents. It will feel like the stone is glazed over when you are sharpening and it will seem like the stone is not having much of an effect. You will generally see this occur on lower (10 microns and smaller) grit stones.

The phrase "high carbon" isn't really all that useful - it's like saying "cars with disc brakes" - and if someone tells me that their knife is "high carbon" when I ask about the steel type I will likely quickly walk away.

 

[EpicHam]

Sometimes a "toothier" edge is more useful when cutting certain material (e.g. plastic wrap, rope, etc.) while a more refined edge is better at cutting other things (fish, wood, etc). It really does depend on what your uses are.

I haven't sharpened on Arkansas stones before, but I would imagine that they are going to have a hard time (as natural stones tend to) on steels with high vanadium contents. It will feel like the stone is glazed over when you are sharpening and it will seem like the stone is not having much of an effect. You will generally see this occur on lower (10 microns and smaller) grit stones.

The phrase "high carbon" isn't really all that useful - it's like saying "cars with disc brakes" - and if someone tells me that their knife is "high carbon" when I ask about the steel type I will likely quickly walk away.

oh wowww
That specific huh
Well I'm more of a KA-BAR kinda guy so its anywhere from 1095 Cro Van and D2 steel and I usually have knives that are partially serrate for the extra heavy duty cutting.
And speaking of getting that "glazed over" feeling, I felt that on the ceramic stone I had , after a while of going back and forth , the blade basically slides over it .
So.... what kinda stone should I use for such steel types then?

 

[Mint427]

I love this forum and you will as well. I've tried Edge Pro, Wicked Edge, natural Japanese & water stones, and finally, Arkansas stones. I have custom hunting knives, expensive Japanese knives, a three set of custom kitchen knives that I had Bob Kramer make for me in 1998 (total cost $600) -- folders, etc. Although I loved the ease of Wicked Edge, there is just something about hand sharpening that makes you feel good. As my friends on this forum wisely advised, I started slow and learned how to put an edge on consistently; you cannot discount the value of patience and practice -- I seem to always lean toward the Arkansas stones as they can also put a blistering sharp edge on virtually most knives -- I have the soft, hard, transparent & black that I purchased from Bob's Arkansas Stones. The other thing that I did to help with the learning curve is to read this forum! These guys are very happy to help with most questions and really know how to help whether your a newbie or pro. Good luck and keep your wallet open!

 

[Cynic2701]

oh wowww
That specific huh
Well I'm more of a KA-BAR kinda guy so its anywhere from 1095 Cro Van and D2 steel and I usually have knives that are partially serrate for the extra heavy duty cutting.
And speaking of getting that "glazed over" feeling, I felt that on the ceramic stone I had , after a while of going back and forth , the blade basically slides over it .
So.... what kinda stone should I use for such steel types then?

1095 Cro Van and D2 aren't especially wear resistant - at least relative to something like S90V - so I think that you could use just about whatever you wanted. D2, with its higher alloy content, should be noticeably different when sharpening compared to 1095 Cro Van.

Ceramic stones (e.g. Spyderco ceramics) are great because they don't really wear much, they remain flat, and they can polish above their grit level if you let the stone load up and glaze over. On the other hand, ceramics are pretty slow compared to diamond stones or waterstones like Shapton's or Chosera's. One thing to think about is the "cutting speed" of the stone you are using. Despite a Spyderco medium stone being roughly equivalent to a Shapton 1000 (Pro or Glass) stone in grit size, there is a significant difference in how quickly they abrade steel. What might take 10-20 minutes on a Spyderco ceramic could take only 2 - 3 on a Shapton or Chosera--and that is no exaggeration.

This is the reason why that although one can use inexpensive solutions to sharpen a knife, the more expensive equipment is going to do the job more quickly. This can save you time, fatigue, and boredom in exchange for being more expensive.

 

[EpicHam]

1095 Cro Van and D2 aren't especially wear resistant - at least relative to something like S90V - so I think that you could use just about whatever you wanted. D2, with its higher alloy content, should be noticeably different when sharpening compared to 1095 Cro Van.

Ceramic stones (e.g. Spyderco ceramics) are great because they don't really wear much, they remain flat, and they can polish above their grit level if you let the stone load up and glaze over. On the other hand, ceramics are pretty slow compared to diamond stones or waterstones like Shapton's or Chosera's. One thing to think about is the "cutting speed" of the stone you are using. Despite a Spyderco medium stone being roughly equivalent to a Shapton 1000 (Pro or Glass) stone in grit size, there is a significant difference in how quickly they abrade steel. What might take 10-20 minutes on a Spyderco ceramic could take only 2 - 3 on a Shapton or Chosera--and that is no exaggeration.

This is the reason why that although one can use inexpensive solutions to sharpen a knife, the more expensive equipment is going to do the job more quickly. This can save you time, fatigue, and boredom in exchange for being more expensive.

Jesus christ !
How many types of steel are there?
Alrighty then !
I guess thats lots to ponder about for a while :thumbup:

 

[Cynic2701]

Jesus christ !
How many types of steel are there?
Alrighty then !
I guess thats lots to ponder about for a while :thumbup:

Personally I think of steels in general as groups of steels that are low alloy and high alloy. Low alloy steels would include steels like 1095, Hitachi White #1, 52100, O1, and etc. that are typically known as "carbon steels." High alloy steels have large percentages of their alloy compositions as non-iron elements, commonly: chromium, vanadium, niobium, molybdenum, etc. Sometimes you can also think of a third category that is "in between" these two High/Low as some tool steels like CPM-3V, A2, D2, etc.

For the most part, low alloy steels have low wear resistance but high toughness while high alloy steels have high wear resistance and relatively lower toughness.

This is a brief overview and by no means exhaustive. The subject of steels is quite broad, and there are numerous good resources here on Bladeforums that can answer your questions in much more detail.

 

[EpicHam]

Huh? Wear resistance and toughness... Shouldn't a tough blade have good wear resistance since its tough??

 

[HeavyHanded]

Huh? Wear resistance and toughness... Shouldn't a tough blade have good wear resistance since its tough??

Think machete or axe - very tough, but heat treat and steel composition intended to take abuse without chipping or shattering. Wear resistance isn't very high because the cutting edge will be consumed fairly quickly depending on how its used.

Wear resistance in use is frequently related to high RC. You wouldn't want a lawnmower blade at RC61 hitting a small stump or rock, at least not with most steels...

 

[EpicHam]

Think machete or axe - very tough, but heat treat and steel composition intended to take abuse without chipping or shattering. Wear resistance isn't very high because the cutting edge will be consumed fairly quickly depending on how its used.

Wear resistance in use is frequently related to high RC. You wouldn't want a lawnmower blade at RC61 hitting a small stump or rock, at least not with most steels...

hmmm....
so basically for SUPER STEEL like S30V and Tool steel like D2 , they are REALLY abrasion resistant and I probably will need a diamond stone to sharpen it .
But for low precious metal high carbon steel like 1095 and 440 , a regular oil stone or even a water stone will suffice.
Yes?

 

[Cynic2701]

hmmm....
so basically for SUPER STEEL like S30V and Tool steel like D2 , they are REALLY abrasion resistant and I probably will need a diamond stone to sharpen it .
But for low precious metal high carbon steel like 1095 and 440 , a regular oil stone or even a water stone will suffice.
Yes?

You can use waterstones on high wear resistant steels - I've used a Chosera 400, Shapton Pro 1000, Shapton Pro 2000, and Shapton Glass 4000 on S90V and S30V just fine - it's just that at the higher grit ratings, waterstones become less effective. Diamond stones can be used on a broad range of steels, though there are definitely occasions when a waterstone would be a better tool, and are effective on steels like S90V even at higher grit ratings.

D2 would likely be fine on Arkansas stones (with the caveat that I've never personally sharpened on one before) it will just take longer to form an edge than a steel like 1095. As HeavyHanded mentioned, hardness ratings can also affect how easy or difficult something is sharpen.

 

[HeavyHanded]

hmmm....
so basically for SUPER STEEL like S30V and Tool steel like D2 , they are REALLY abrasion resistant and I probably will need a diamond stone to sharpen it .
But for low precious metal high carbon steel like 1095 and 440 , a regular oil stone or even a water stone will suffice.
Yes?

A lot of that depends on how fine you intend to go. Even on the high carbide steels, a plain silicon carbide stone from the hardware store, or wet/dry silicon carbide sandpaper will work them very well and quickly to boot. If you want to go to a very fine polish, then fine, extra fine, extra extra fine diamond plate would be in order. A standard aluminum oxide stone can work those steels down to a reasonable polish, but at some point, the carbides will need to be shaped by the abrasive. Only the highest purity aluminum oxide stands a chance against these materials, and even then only at the lowest end of their potential hardness - it can work the steel and some of the carbides, most will be harder than the abrasive. Many folks successfully use Norton India stones on s30v and D2, its when you get up to s90v and on that it really slows down. There are some waterstones that can handle very tough steels, but not all by any means - consult much before settling on a brand of waterstones for a specific steel or range of steels.

Silicon carbide can handle a lot, even Vanadium carbides IIRC are only harder than SiC at the high end of their potential (the alloying agents - Vanadium, Chromium etc - form carbides with a bit of variance in their properties), so once again, a lot can be done with it on the toughest of steels and is capable of working them pretty fine in my experience. Diamond is the best choice for the really tough steels and a really fine finish. Fortunately, most of the high carbide steels seem to perform best in the medium finish range, 600-1000 grit or so, no real need to go finer unless its personal preference.

On carbon steels and fine grained low carbide stainless, a lot of abrasives will work very well. At lower RC one can use a file very effectively (again, mostly machetes and hatchets/axes). On the lower RC kitchen cutlery one can use the unglazed underside of a coffee cup and grind very well, or use a grooved an smooth steel etc - just about anything will work well. Most natural oil stones or less fancy waterstones (King) can easily handle most of these steels as well, even at higher RC.

Arkansas stones will slow way down vs some of the borderline steels like 154cm, but handle carbon steels very well. I do not believe you could work D2 with one except maybe with a black or translucent for a final polish. Have to keep in mind that what cannot be ground can occasionally be fractured, and without a lot of observation at high magnification its tough to tell exactly what is happening sometimes at the cutting edge.

Martin

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

You can use waterstones on high wear resistant steels - I've used a Chosera 400, Shapton Pro 1000, Shapton Pro 2000, and Shapton Glass 4000 on S90V and S30V just fine - it's just that at the higher grit ratings, waterstones become less effective. Diamond stones can be used on a broad range of steels, though there are definitely occasions when a waterstone would be a better tool, and are effective on steels like S90V even at higher grit ratings.

D2 would likely be fine on Arkansas stones (with the caveat that I've never personally sharpened on one before) it will just take longer to form an edge than a steel like 1095. As HeavyHanded mentioned, hardness ratings can also affect how easy or difficult something is sharpen.

I don't think D2 would respond much, if at all, to Arkansas stones; at least not in the heavy grinding or shaping stages. I've noticed even 440C seems beyond the threshold at which they can be effective (learned this lesson attempting to re-bevel an old Buck 112 in 440C; my Arkansas stones wouldn't touch it). D2's chromium carbide content is another notch beyond 440C. I prefer diamond for setting bevels on D2, and really like silicon carbide (wet/dry sandpaper) for grinding, refining and polishing both 440C and D2. These really respond nicely to SiC, especially in the mid-to-higher grit range (400-2000+). Two of my best efforts with SiC wet/dry paper were the old Buck 112 (440C) and a Queen Country Cousin in D2; both convexed nicely with SiC wet/dry paper. I did initially thin the grind on the Queen D2 folder with a DMT Fine 'credit card' hone, and that worked pretty well. Past that, I did all the convexing and refining/polishing on the wet/dry paper.

As HH (Martin) mentioned, the black hard or translucent Arkansas stones can sometimes work in final polishing; I've used a small black hard Arkansas stone for de-burring, and it works pretty well for that on 440C, D2, VG-10 and similar steels. Note these are all fairly heavy in chromium carbides, but not vanadium carbides, which are even harder. I wouldn't put much faith in accomplishing anything with Arkansas stones on vanadium carbide-heavy steels, like S30V/S90V and similar.


David

 

[Cynic2701]

Thanks for the information on Arkansas stones. Is there anything, in particular, that they would be more useful for sharpening over waterstones/ceramics?

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Thanks for the information on Arkansas stones. Is there anything, in particular, that they would be more useful for sharpening over waterstones/ceramics?

To be honest, I don't know if they're actually better or more useful, as compared to modern synthetic stones. I think Arkansas stones may have 'old school' appeal to some, and for simple carbon and low-alloy stainless, they'd likely be fine. As mentioned earlier, the black hard and translucent stones seem to be especially popular for finishing/polishing. I've noticed that my small pocket-sized black hard stone is somewhat 'gentle' in de-burring and polishing tasks, and is more forgiving of using some pressure in polishing bevels, without generating big burrs. In that respect, it can be a very comfortable stone to work with, especially as compared to a ceramic, which can create sizeable burrs in a heartbeat if pressure is just a little too heavy.


David

 

[EpicHam]

There really isn't much of an advantage of using an entire Arkansas stone system to it is there?
So... what you're saying is..
For modern blades with high vanadium and chromium content it'll be better to use modern synthetic stones , and Arkansas will have difficulty even with 440C?

Well ain't I glad I still haven't bought anything yet
And with diamond stones.
AHA!
So diamond IS a better stone with the high chromium/vanadium/neodymium/etc etc added steel .
So should I settle for a few diamond stones in the 120-1000 range and as I move beyond 1000 , switch to arkansas hard translucent and beyond that switch to silicon carbide 2000 grit , and beyond that to waterstones and when I reach above 8000 grit , go to stropping with diamond paste to reach the PERFECT finish.
Yes?

 

[HeavyHanded]

There really isn't much of an advantage of using an entire Arkansas stone system to it is there?
So... what you're saying is..
For modern blades with high vanadium and chromium content it'll be better to use modern synthetic stones , and Arkansas will have difficulty even with 440C?

Well ain't I glad I still haven't bought anything yet
And with diamond stones.
AHA!
So diamond IS a better stone with the high chromium/vanadium/neodymium/etc etc added steel .
So should I settle for a few diamond stones in the 120-1000 range and as I move beyond 1000 , switch to arkansas hard translucent and beyond that switch to silicon carbide 2000 grit , and beyond that to waterstones and when I reach above 8000 grit , go to stropping with diamond paste to reach the PERFECT finish.
Yes?

For woodworking carbon steels, a lot of suppliers still offer a full range of Arkansas stones, and they probably are a better choice than many as they really do polish as they grind - makes for an edge with very good qualities. They're not outdated, but they aren't versatile and IMHO are not a good choice for general maintenance of a variety of tools/steels.

If you are going to go with high carbide steels and diamond plates, I'd get an entire set from coarse to extra, extra fine - not best practices to swap abrasives in a progression unless that's what you already have on hand. If you are expecting to only work some high carbide steels and a range of others I'd go with silicon carbide start to finish. That's what I use personally most of the time as it just seems to do a consistent job no matter what steel I'm working on. Diamonds don't play well with softer steels, specific brands of waterstones seem to prefer specific ranges of steel and might not produce consistent results on all comers based on my experiences.

The tools for a perfect finish might depend a lot more on the steel in question. For freehand sharpening you should really work up a PERFECT finish after mastering the basics - will save you a lot of time and frustration. If you follow the link I pasted in my response on page 1 you can see a progression of edge effects (micrographs at 400x) I made off my Washboard and a final one I did with a fine ceramic hone and some stropping with Flexcut Gold on leather. I also provide a description of how each finish was cutting at the time. Its not rocket science, but you do need a good foundation to start from and a working understanding of some common steels.

Martin

 

[me2]

Jesus christ !
How many types of steel are there?
Alrighty then !
I guess thats lots to ponder about for a while :thumbup:

Wow, you weren't kidding when you said you were green. First of all, what knife/steel are you going to sharpen? If you stick to 1095CroVan, Arkansas stones work fine. D2 I've not tried, but 440C will work fine on Arkansas stones, as long as you don't need to change the bevel angle or remove chips or damage.

I sharpened using a Soft Arkansas stone, a Hard Arkansas stone, and a ceramic rod for many years. The steels were limited to Buck's 425 M (similar to current 420HC, but a little harder), 1095 (Kabar), Sandvick 12C27, and 440A. A cheap Norton Economy stone from Home Depot ($6) will take care of any rebeveling or repair work. The Arkansas stones worked well for theses, and I could shave my arm off the Soft, nevermind the hard or ceramic rod. I did not know about the Hard Black or Translucent Arkansas stones. These are finishing stones only.

The downside of Arkansas stones is they have issues with modern CPM steels like S30V or others. They cut a little slower than other stones, they require oil, and they are kinda hard to find now.

The upside is they will give you a very sharp edge, they are hard - meaning they don't need flattening very often and can't be gouged by an edge, and the Black and Translucent will give you an extremely sharp edge. If I were only still using the above steels, I'd still be happy with my old Smith's Soft and Hard Arkansas, though I'd have likely replaced the ceramic rod with a Translucent or Black.

 

[MerryMadMonk]

This sticky is a very good reference: Steel FAQ