Question on freehanding technique

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maximus83

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Nov 7, 2011
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I'm trying to improve my freehanding technique on benchstones and would appreciate some tips.

On alternating sides:
Is it a bad idea to get your angle and grip solid, and then do say 5 or 10 strokes on one side, before you flip the blade over and do the same amount on the other side? I find it VERY inefficient to do a single stroke, then have to flip the blade over, get a new grip, sort of re-estimate the angle, and stroke the other side every single time. It seems more efficient to make 5 or 10 passes with the same grip. But I don't know if this is a bad idea and causes things to get unbalanced on your edge.

On directions:
Do you always sharpen by doing a push-stroke in a direction pointing away from yourself? Meaning of course, that you have to alternate left-hand/right-hand each time when you flip the blade over? Or, do you do an AWAY stroke, and then flip the blade over, and do a RETURN stroke (bringing it back toward yourself), so you can keep the blade in the same hand going both ways?

I've seen people use both of the above approaches. Curious if one works better than the other, consistently.

On getting the tip sharp:
What do you do to get and keep your tip super sharp (and avoid rounding/blunting it)?
 
I'm pretty new at "free handing" also but this is as good a place to start as any.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozZF2EgnYm0

"On direction" In broad general terms, doesn't matter when doing the rough shaping of the bevel/edge. However, many feel ONLY trailing edge strokes should be used to finish, hone, the final edge.
 
Here's a good video on sharpening tips:

[youtube]tmBTO0cA_qw[/youtube]

What he"s showing will also work with oilstones, diamond-coated benchstones, or ceramic hones, too.
 
I won't claim to be an expert knife sharpener but I'd been using Murray Carters techniques since before I'd heard of him and since learning of him I've picked up tons of great tips from him. I suggest you do a search for his name on YouTube as he gives tons of great info for free on the Internet.
 
Thanks for the responses, the videos look interesting. I've seen a few of the videos out there myself, but sometimes these give contradictory advice.

It would be really interesting to hear from some of the resident freehanding pros and hear their thoughts on some of these issues as well. I have to think that I can't be the first person who has thought about this issue, for instance, the inefficiency of changing your grip on the knife with every single stroke just so you can alternate sides.
 
I don't consider myself a pro, but here's my take. I used to (when I was first getting proficient) swap every stroke but stopped for several reasons.
You need to raise a burr to be certain you're grinding all the way to the apex, so there's no real advantage to sharpening alternate strokes every pass. When I get down to final burr removal, I'm going so light it takes two or three passes to flip the burr anyway, so even to finish there's not much advantage. Not until I'm at the very last couple of passes do I make single strokes.

That said, I used to get good edges back then though they took a lot longer - so there's no reason not to do it that way if you're comfortable with it. There is one advantage in that your burr will never be too large, but that's easily managed anyway.
 
I've gotten to where I prefer (strongly) to actually see the edge in contact with the hone or strop. For this reason, in order to keep the edge towards me, I've been using both hands. I don't switch on each stroke, on the hones anyway. As HH mentioned, it generally takes at least a few passes on one side to make meaningful progress/change on that side. So I'll make however many passes seem right for the circumstances, then switch. Only when I'm making the finishing touches, on the hones and on the strop, do I reduce the number of passes per side down to maybe 3 or less, before switching hands.

One of the things that really used to bug me about my own inconsistencies in technique, was that I was not able to maintain the same angle on one side of the blade, as on the other. I think much of that was due to the fact that I couldn't see the edge on the 'away' stroke, using only my right hand to control the blade. Invariably, I'd produce bevels that were more acute on one side, and more obtuse on the other. That was a big motivator for me to train my hands to do it better and more consistently, and it's why I've focused on using both hands. That's also had additional benefits, in utilizing both hemispheres of the brain in the process. I used to think such a concept was mostly hype, but I've noticed if I've been doing good work with both of my hands, my mind really seems better able to focus on all of it. It really seems to enhance the 'sharpening mojo', on the days when I'm fortunate enough to really be 'on my game', so to speak. :)
 
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These are great insightful comments, and it leads me to think that in general, maybe I'm on the right track with the idea of running several strokes per side of the blade, before flipping it over.

As you noted Obsessed, I've already seen that each time you flip the blade over, it's VERY hard to maintain a consistent grind angle. And I've already considered your idea of learning to use BOTH hands, so that my blade strokes can run in the same direction, all I have to do is flip the blade over and change hands. And finally I also agree that I do the best, most consistent grinding when the blade stroke is coming back toward me. So I think I'm going to experiment with the approach of using both hands, going several strokes at a time with each hand, and bringing the blade back towards myself on both sides.
 
Maximus

maximus83 said:
These are great insightful comments, and it leads me to think that in general, maybe I'm on the right track with the idea of running several strokes per side of the blade, before flipping it over.

As you noted Obsessed, I've already seen that each time you flip the blade over, it's VERY hard to maintain a consistent grind angle. And I've already considered your idea of learning to use BOTH hands, so that my blade strokes can run in the same direction, all I have to do is flip the blade over and change hands. And finally I also agree that I do the best, most consistent grinding when the blade stroke is coming back toward me. So I think I'm going to experiment with the approach of using both hands, going several strokes at a time with each hand, and bringing the blade back towards myself on both sides.
Click to expand...

Here is another link to a series of excellent videos by our very own "KnifeNut1013". His YouTube handle is "mredgy81". it's a 5 part series and he walks you through the whole process giving tips and advice throughout each video. They really are some of the best, most informative, I've found on Youtube.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VizLyNOr0s
 
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Thanks again for the links. Very informative. I noticed that the guy in this video uses a stroke where he goes back-and-forth on the stone without lifting the blade. I haven't seen that technique very often, so that was kind of interesting. Also, he doesn't switch his primary hand, so he has to take the approach of stroking away for a while, then flipping blade and stroking back towards himself.
 
I've been using the short stroke fore and aft method for a while now - switching hands/sides. Just had some work done to my left wrist and its in a cast with thumb immobilized so I'm revisiting using my right hand to hold the handle in both directions - left regulates pressure with fingertips. I just did one knife so far using this method and have to admit there might be something to using the dominant hand for the same task both sides, and the secondary hand likewise. Even if it means learning two techniques. The bevel I whipped off was picture perfect - very surprised. I haven't tried this method in a year or two and gave up on it pretty quick.
 
I do multiple strokes on each side, both towards and away from myself on each side

edit: just like heavyhanded, he described it much better than me, i always use only my right hand
 
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I understand what you guys are saying; that's what the guy in the video does (uses same hand, stroking away and then back).

Pretty much the ONLY thing I don't like about this approach is, you basically are dealing with two different holds on the knife, two different ways of estimating the angle height (for example: using your thumb when stroking outward, using your index finger when bringing it back toward yourself). To me, that adds complexity. Doesn't mean it's bad, but right now I'm striving for a consistency so that everything: my grinding motion, my angle, my hold on the blade, is pretty much the same. If you can do that approach with the same hand and keep perfect consistency, angle height, etc, then I'm sure it works great.
 
maximus83 said:
I understand what you guys are saying; that's what the guy in the video does (uses same hand, stroking away and then back).

Pretty much the ONLY thing I don't like about this approach is, you basically are dealing with two different holds on the knife, two different ways of estimating the angle height (for example: using your thumb when stroking outward, using your index finger when bringing it back toward yourself). To me, that adds complexity. Doesn't mean it's bad, but right now I'm striving for a consistency so that everything: my grinding motion, my angle, my hold on the blade, is pretty much the same. If you can do that approach with the same hand and keep perfect consistency, angle height, etc, then I'm sure it works great.
Click to expand...

Have at it sir! I must say that is how I currently operate (ambidextrous). By the time I get this cast off, I fully expect to be comfortable grinding both ways. I suspect I might wind up preferring to use primary hand for both sides. I realize this seems more difficult at first consideration, but it all comes down to what each hand is better at and playing to their strengths. It took me quite a few years to realize that making full strokes heel to tip with every pass was removing more metal than needed at some points on the blade, and making it harder to maintain consistent bevel angle along the entire length (though the bevels look very nice). Only by examining my results using circular grinding methods did I come to the conclusion that the shorter the distance one moves the blade with each pass, the easier it is for this imperfect machine (me) to hold a tight grind angle. And so I abandoned full passes heel to tip in favor of breaking up the blade into overlapping sections. Winds up being faster and more accurate for me. Same thing with the back and forth motion - I used to be strictly edge-leading every stroke except for stropping on leather. Then I realized it was twice as slow compared to a fore and aft stroke, and no more accurate.

There are many tasks that can be done with alternating hands, but detail work is almost invariably done with our primary hand - try writing or even printing your name with your non dominant hand. Try throwing a ball with the non dominant hand. These things are doable, but most will find it far easier to adapt the primary hand to an additional detail task rather than reassign the non dominant hand. Likewise, using the dominant hand to support the actions of the secondary hand results in a different kind of clumsy.

I tend to over-analyze stuff, but I am committed to learning both methods (out of necessity).
 
Glad to hear that SOMEBODY else out there uses the idea of "breaking up the blade into overlapping sections." That thought has occurred to me too, as it seemed like it might be more efficient in some cases.

I've learned more in one thread than I probably did in the last month. :-)
 
HeavyHanded said:
Same thing with the back and forth motion - I used to be strictly edge-leading every stroke except for stropping on leather. Then I realized it was twice as slow compared to a fore and aft stroke, and no more accurate.
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i strongly second that, plus the fact that you don't reset your angle at each strokes makes thing way more consistant along the entire session. andwith time i've noticed that making shorter and faster strokes helped me a lot keeping the angle locked. only downside is that you have to frequently change the spot you are ginding on or it will dish your stone way faster.
 
maximus83 said:
Glad to hear that SOMEBODY else out there uses the idea of "breaking up the blade into overlapping sections." That thought has occurred to me too, as it seemed like it might be more efficient in some cases.

I've learned more in one thread than I probably did in the last month. :-)
Click to expand...

Here's another reason to grind this way - if you're doing a larger knife you can still get it all done with a smaller stone. Until quite recently I used to do my machetes on a 18" lengths of bonded silicon carbide sanding belt - various grits glued to individual boards. Large body movements. After applying a combination of smaller hand movements, overlapping sections, and fore and aft, I easily reground a bevel and finished a 14" Tramontina to a shaving edge using an 8" Norton India stone and some Sears white compound on a couple sheets of newspaper (wrapped around the same stone). No small thing when the factory "edge" was about 1/16" across. The more I learn, the less I want to be bothered by too many processes or cumbersome equipment. You can dither yourself insane, or see what's really happening and simplify.
 
HeavyHanded said:
Here's another reason to grind this way - if you're doing a larger knife you can still get it all done with a smaller stone. Until quite recently I used to do my machetes on a 18" lengths of bonded silicon carbide sanding belt - various grits glued to individual boards. Large body movements. After applying a combination of smaller hand movements, overlapping sections, and fore and aft, I easily reground a bevel and finished a 14" Tramontina to a shaving edge using an 8" Norton India stone and some Sears white compound on a couple sheets of newspaper (wrapped around the same stone). No small thing when the factory "edge" was about 1/16" across. The more I learn, the less I want to be bothered by too many processes or cumbersome equipment. You can dither yourself insane, or see what's really happening and simplify.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. :thumbup:

Sort of by fate, all of my habits were built around using smaller hones & strops for all tasks. Never really got comfortable with 'bench' sharpening. With my Spyderco DoubleStuff hone and a small strop block I've made (stropping on the hard oak itself, with compound), I recently started experimenting with a longitudinal stroke along the edge's length, as opposed to keeping the edge perpendicular to direction of stroke. I am finding it much easier to maintain angle this way, and the results are paying off. I'm also finding it much easier to roll or 'flip' a wire edge this way, by sliding the ceramic hone along the length of the edge, from heel to tip. That, by itself, is huge.
 
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Obsessed, if you get a chance could you snap a cellphone pic or two showing how you grip your double-stuff hone and slide it along the blade.

I'd like to see a detailed shot showing stuff like...
* What angle you hold the knife at, and the hone.
* Do you hold hone perpendicular to, or parallel to, the blade when you grind along from heel to tip.

Also, do you use that hone for everything, and if so, what do you like about it better than say diamond hones, when you have to do heavier work?
 
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