Question - why so many knifemakers hate 440 C?

Actually, my understanding is...they don't. 440C is still an excellent stainless steel and the benchmark by which most current stainless steels are measured. It just happens that 440C has been surpassed by newer alloys allowing greater hardness, corrosion resistance, wear resistance...etc. 440C still makes a great knife. But there are now better options and the custom world clientele demand it.
 
I don't hate 440-C, makes a great filet or kitchen knife, it's inexpensive. Customers don't like 440-C because of all the cheap 440 A knives made that won't hold an edge.
So all 440 gets grouped together. Also CPM 154 and S35vn are alot better and the cost is not much more for each knife.
 
Additionally, I have heard it said that inferior heat treat by some production companies, along with the mistake of confusing 440A and 440B with 440C also contributed to the reduced use by custom makers of the alloy.
 
If it is heat treated properly it is a damn fine steel. The problem is lack of demand, so most knifemakers probably don't have any in stock and don't want to be bothered. It is easier to up-sell the customer to what they do have in stock stating that it is superior to 440C (which it is). So, no 440C for you! :)
 
440-C was "The Steel" at one time. It still is a great steel for knives. It just lost it's shine when the fancy steels with lots of letters came out. Knifemakers rarely hate 440-C, knife buyers hated it. They have a wrong impression of it as a low quality steel that makes poor knives. Educating your customers is all it usually takes to get them to buy a 440-C knife.

That said, I will never go back from CPM-S35VN. It costs about $10 a knife in 440C, and $20 in S35VN. The extra $10 is money well spent for me.
 
SBuzek said:
Customers don't like 440-C because of all the cheap 440 A knives made that won't hold an edge.
So all 440 gets grouped together.
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Confusion in the marketplace is the problem.

I know some big name knifemakers who prefer 440C because of its performance. A knifemaker who specializes in kitchen knives did a test. He sent some of his big customers (chefs) knives made from 440C and did not tell them the steel used in the knives. Every chef raved about the performance.

When you look at CATRA tests, 440C cuts better than both 154CM and CPM154. The steel has good performance.

I think 440C could be more accepted by collectors as a good performing steel if knife companies and knifemakers put more effort into marketing the steel. The question is why anyone would want to expend effort marketing 440C when other steels are available? A good example is S35VN. This steel lives on hype. It performs worse than S30V and costs more. If a knifemaker uses S35VN, they do not have to do any marketing except to say, "look at all the other people using this steel".

A knifemaker has a finite number of hours to spend marketing their knives. I don't know if the time spent marketing 440C is worth the return.

Chuck
 
Just a guess, but I would think if 440C was called something else, probably ANYTHING else, it wouldn't have the "stigma" it seems to have. A, B, C....these mean little to the general consumer. "440" has that bad rep....the numbers "440". As in that Buck knife mentioned a few post above. I have been impressed with every 440C knife I have come across, from the offerings of kit knives by Jantz to the Benchmade kitchen knife line Prestidges (or however they spell it).
 
John Katt said:
Here is a long winded read covering the stigma surrounding 440C http://www.jayfisher.com/440C_Love_Hate.htm
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I wouldn't take, or quote, Mr. Fisher's word on 440C or pretty much anything else. He's a very interesting guy, I'll say that much.

Another very interesting guy is a cat named Bill Bagwell, who often wrote that, "The main appeal of 440C is, it's shiny. It can't make a good knife."

Bagwell was wrong about that... depending on what you mean by "a good knife".

So as usual, the truth is somewhere in the middle of the extremes. :)

There's nothing "wrong" with the chemistry of 440C. It makes a good deal of sense for a thin knife, and can make an outstanding cutter.

I don't buy the "stigma" thing, of people confusing good 440C with pro HT, with cheap "maybe 440-something" from crappy factories in China. We're talking about handmade/custom knives here, not flea-market junk. It's 2014; our clients know the difference.

I don't know any makers who "hate" 440C. In fact, I know several makers who still swear by it. Some of those makers bought hundreds of pounds of it many years ago, back when they knew and trusted the mills it came from, and it was one of the cleanest high-alloy steels available. I suspect that's a big factor in their loyalty to it. In fact, when I was having problems with it, every one of those makers examined my complaints and said... "Well... dang, son, I guess you didn't get the real 440C. Shoulda bought a bunch 20 years ago, from an American mill." That's not terribly helpful.

A very few makers still swear by it simply because it's become inexpensive (guess why? cheap import "versions" of the alloy), and now has a sort of "old school" panache, harkening back to the glory days of the 70's... *shrug*

Marketing confusion aside, my only serious "problem" with 440C is, the quality of 440C on the market has taken a nosedive in recent years. It only takes a couple bars of dirty steel riddled with inclusions before a guy like me says, "forget that, never again". When so-called 440C looks worse than D2 as you finish it up... there's a big, big problem. That kinda problem gets real expensive, real quick. :grumpy:

I will take a wild guess and say that depends mostly on which mill made it... but frankly, it just wasn't worth it for me to dig too far into the whys and wherefores when I was already getting CPM-154 for not much more, making knives with it that performed better, and having none of the same problems with it.

I'm basically on the same page with Stacy... There are equal or much, much better (depending on whom you ask), and more importantly cleaner and more reliable stainless alloys available now, for nearly the same cost. As Stacy said, $10 or even $20 extra in steel cost per blade is not a deal-breaker for me or my customers.

440C was the bomb in 1975, and it was still right near the top of the heap in 1985. Time marches on. ;)
 
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Bohler makes an excellent 440c called N695.


Pablo
 
Doesn't Randall Knives use 440-C as their primary stainless? I've seen some tests of their knives next to INFI and it performed VERY impressively.

To echo what others have said here, I don't think many of the knifemakers hate 440-C. It's customers. If that steel was to come out today it would be a popular steel.
 
I've got a handful of production knives in 440C, and doubt I would ever NOT use or buy a production knife because it was made from 440C.

Now, why do I, as a custom maker, have no real desire to use 440C? For me, it's just not worth the very minor cost savings (if any) over some of the more modern stainless steels. Now, if you can tell me why it's a better choice than something like AEB-L for instance (which happens to be cheaper), then maybe I'll reconsider.

Now, I can't say that I completely ignore "marketing" of one steel over the other, but I can't say that the "marketing" is completely without merit in some instances. (Yes, there is hype as well, to be sure)

As for CATRA test performances, my understanding is that they are somewhat subjective and can vary "not insignificantly" with edge/blade geometry differences, and even steel manufacturers: bohler, carpenter, crucible, etc... One chart I saw had 154CM outperforming 440C, but had a second knife of 154CM underperforming as well.
 
Several months ago, I started a thread asking other makers opinion on selecting a steel based on marketing reasons. It can be found here;

Choosing a new steel for marketing reasons

I switched from 440C to CPM-S35VN and AEB-L. I still make knives from 440C but, they are mostly for gifts or for myself. I always ask buyers which steel they would like and most go with S35VN even over the AEB-L. A few more knowledgeable buyers will say something to the effect of, "440C is a really fine steel but I think I'll go with the S35".

To specifically answer Gunfight's question, 440C is superior to AEB-L when it is available and the AEB-L is not. I've been waiting for a few months to get some AEB-L in .170-.190" thickness and it is not available. The thickest material I can get is .130".

Bob
 
J To echo what others have said here said:
I agree, but would say that "if it came out today with really good quality control it would be a very popular steel."
It only takes one iffy batch to make you feel like ordering a known top quality steel the next time.
AEBL is getting close to being a hundred years old (1920s) but it's made really well.
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knife to a gunfight said:
As for CATRA test performances, my understanding is that they are somewhat subjective and can vary "not insignificantly" with edge/blade geometry differences, and even steel manufacturers: bohler, carpenter, crucible, etc... One chart I saw had 154CM outperforming 440C, but had a second knife of 154CM underperforming as well.
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The CATRA tests I referenced eliminated as many variables as possible. The blades were ground to the same angle and the edge was sharpened on CATRA sharpeners. The test was double blind so the steel company and CATRA did not know what steels were being tested. The blades were identified by a letter. After the testing was complete the knifemaker who ground and heat treated the blades identified the the steels associated with the letters. I don't know how the test could have been more objective.

I agree different batches of steel and different manufacturers can have different results. The biggest difference is the same steel heat treated to differtent hardnesses. I wish I had the time and money to have CATRA testing performed. While I'm wishing I might as well wish for my own CATRA testing machine. :D

Here is a link to the CATRA web page. There is a video showing the machine testing a knife.
http://www.catra.org/pages/products/kniveslevel1/slt.htm

Chuck
 
I agree with almost everyones response. As all have said the better steels are a little more expensive but hold an edge longer if properly heat treated an soaked in Liquid Nitrogen then tempered again. CPM-154 holds an edge just a little better then say ATS-34 or 154-Cm an I like it the most. $440C is a good knife steel if heat treated an tempered with liquid nitrogen. In my knife steels that I use S-30-V is the better performer then the aforementioned ones as far as holding an edge, it will form rust somewhat if not cleaned, as they all will. 440C might be the most rust resident one of the whole bunch but if heat an cold quenched right will be a good performer an the average deer hunter would probably love it , but lots of companies in the older days did not cold quench 440C an it later got the rap as not a good edge holder. but everyone got educated in the 90's an 2000's an I would not be afraid to take a 440C blade if I made it an heat treated it any where to skin anything, but as always bring a good diamond hone for field touch ups like I would do with the V steels also.
 
Since Bob Scrimshers shop was heat treating my 440c blades in the mid 70's until present I
have'nt had any problems with it. There will be a couple of newer "better" ones tommorow.
Ken.
 
Here's a story about 440 C. I have been using 440 C for a lot of my hunting knives and most of my personal knives. I have been a member of the Safari Club for many years and attended some of their events. One year their convention was in Reno , Nevada and I could not attend but my friend Ron went and said he would bring me some literature from the knife makers there. He brought back a brochure from a knife company in South Africa with some very nice knives and they featured some stainless steel that they said was from Sweden or Denmark and was very special and exotic . I looked up the steel name and found it's composition by percentage and the numbers looked very familiar to me so I looked in my file on steel and found the very same composition. It was 440 C. I buy it in precision ground for less than other stainless steel in mill finish and I do not own a surface grinder so it saves me time to use 440c, and besides I like it.
 
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