Questions about 1095 carbon steel

[Alberta Ed]

I gave my brother-in-law a dandy little drop-point made by Colorado Cutlery a few years back -- micarta grip, about a 3" blade, in 1095. Dandy little knife, tough as heck, took a great edge. One of my favorite whittlers, a Boker King Kutter is in 1095, I think; it seems to be quite hard and a great edge holder. Nothing at all wrong with 1095.

 

[Joe Talmadge]

Tops has a couple of knives that I really like the looks of. I noticed that almost all of their knives are made of "1095 carbon steel". They claim an Rc rating of 58. I don't have any experience with this steel so was wondering about its performance, etc. It's not a stainless so does that mean it only "stains" easier or also rusts easier? I seems odd they they would make almost their entire line of knives from this steel. I wonder why.

Thanks for any info.

1095 is forgiving, inexpensive, relatively easy to grind, easy to sharpen, and tougher than most stainless steels. That makes it the default choice for most <$100 do-all fixedblades (e.g., kabars), and also the choice of some for higher-end knives. Note Cliff's opinion on Tops heat treat of 1095, he's felt for a long time their heat treat leaves it brittle. I have seem pretty high-end knives use 1095, with some pretty interesting heat treats. Since 1095 is used in such a wide range of uses with a range of heat treats (because of its great versatility), you can end up with anything from really-well-done to overly soft to overly brittle.

I agree with the statements that 1095 tends to surface rust rather than pit. Rust is a weird thing. I know a guy who basically wipes his carbon blades with a dirty rag and stores them in the sheath, and they never seem to rust, and other folks whose knives rust if they don't constantly wipe them down with Tuf Cloth. How overblown you think this issue is probably depends on which extreme you lean towards. If a 1095 knife met my needs, I wouldn't hesitate to buy it, but I would take much more care of it than a stainless blade.

 

[bladeprince]

Guess I've had more experience with it than I thought. I forgot about my Kabar that was stolen from my truck (never rusted), the 30 year old Old Hickory paring knife I still use (just found out that Ontario makes them now), helping my father and grandfather clean fish when I was a boy (early fifties). I remember my father's fishing knife rusting a little but nothing he seemed to worry about. I can see that a small amount of care could have prevented it.

The Old Hickory paring knife gets left wet in the sink often and therefore rusts frequently. Just a little rubbing with the scrubbie spounge, put it in the dish rack to dry and it's ready to go again.

Cliff, I can understand that a heat treatment that brings the Rc up into the 60's could make a steel brittle but you still think that the Top's treatment to only Rc 58 still makes it brittle steel? Tops also sells a number of hatchets made from the same steel. These would ovbiously take a real beating compared to a knife. However, they are thicker, I'm sure. I'm not trying to argue with you. Your experience with steel far outweighs mine. Just asking for some confirmation about Tops knives being brittle. I've never had the chance to really "beat one up".

Thanks

 

[Ben Dover]

I have two knives currently that I KNOW are 1095, and several that I "suspect" might be. The more expensive known 1095 ones must have had a good heat treat, because they are truly superb performers. I still like D-2 and A-2, better, but that doesn't take anything away from the 1095. I don't have any blades of M-2 or M-4 YET but I hope that will change next year!

 

[knarfeng]

Esav, food grade mineral oil it is...thanks.

Bladeprince, you may need to go to the pharmacy to find the mineral oil. You will find it with the laxatives.
I takes a fair amount for it to have a laxative effect. The amount used to care for your knife is insufficient to cause any "issues".

 

[cognitivefun]

another wonderful edible oil that doesn't seem to get rancid is camellia oil.

I have a bottle of it that I use on my razor after a shave and the razor lasts forever.

It is used in cooking and is a natural alternative to mineral oil in the event you don't like the idea of using mineral oil. I don't know if the camellia oil is better than mineral oil or not but it has more appeal to me.

I have about 50 khukuris that are made from carbon steel and they don't seem to rust. I spray them now and then with Balistol. Even knives that end up in the car trunk don't rust when sprayed with Balistol.

 

[Waco Kid]

another wonderful edible oil that doesn't seem to get rancid is camellia oil.

Camellia oil is good -- it might also be labeled 'Tea Oil.' It has a naturally very high Vit. E content which resists oxidization/rancidity (and makes it quite healthy too). Even Mineral oil has Vit. E added to it for increased shelf life.

Right now my favorite oil for knives is Jojoba Oil (apparently a 'liquid wax'). But unless you live in the Southwest, you might have a hard time finding it(?)
So far it outlasts any oil I've tried (even in the 100+ degree desert heat!)... and it's au naturel.


-kid

 

[Cliff Stamp]

.... still think that the Top's treatment to only Rc 58 still makes it brittle steel?

The materials data for 1095 is public knowledge :

http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/knives/blade_materials.html#C_1095

The 500F embrittlement zone is well known for low alloy carbon steels. This would be no different for example than avoiding the high temper of 154CM because there is embrittlement for the same reason, carbide precipitation, though in that case it is chromium carbide vs cementite for 1095.

-Cliff

 

[bladeprince]

The materials data for 1095 is public knowledge :

http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/knives/blade_materials.html#C_1095

The 500F embrittlement zone is well known for low alloy carbon steels. This would be no different for example than avoiding the high temper of 154CM because there is embrittlement for the same reason, carbide precipitation, though in that case it is chromium carbide vs cementite for 1095.

-Cliff

Thank you for the response. I read your paper and most of the links. I also read your review of the TOPS Steel Eagle. It sounds like I can do better then 1095. For now, I think I'll put the purchase on hold. Thanks to all for their input.

Regards

 

[Guntotin_fool]

1095 is one of Mike Stewarts favorites steels for making blades and has a large window for useful heat treats. I used to use an old skinner made in shop class that was 1095 and only retired it because it meant more to keep in safe place than risk losing in nowheresville BC. I used to use car wax on the blade, old turtle wax was safe, long lasting and kept the shine up too, not that that was important. it was very durable and would only get redone about once a year or so, even with pretty heavy use. A side benefit when cutting vegies or potatoes for supper, they slid right off, not clinging to the blade.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

It sounds like I can do better then 1095.

As how it is generally handled yes. It has basically become the default knife steel, often used for low end production which unfortuately leaves people with a poor viewpoint of its ability. If you really want to see what it can do well then get one of Johnston's kit knives (they are free, check on rec.knives) in 1095. Note that Japanese White steel is essentially W1 which is a tool steel version of 1095 and highly praised for high end cutlery. The main reason they are though of as so different (1095 vs white steel) is simply due to how they are hardened.

-Cliff

 

[David Schott]

As always, the most important aspect of a blade is what you cannot see. A steel is as good as its heat treatment when it comes to blades. 1095 is a great steel if properly heat treated and cared for. Unfortunately, the cost of the steel ends up with it in unskilled hands or low quality goods from time to time.

Dont judge a steel by its mainstream usage. Judge it for its potential. Potential in 1095 is endless. Plus if you enjoy hamons and vivid differential tempering, you wont be travelling far from 1095.

Ive seen some 3,000$+ knives from 1095 that I would never ever consider low-end.

 

[Blop]

It sounds like I can do better then 1095.

Which one?

Comparing custom or small range heat treatment to mass heat treatment you surely will find better results in the custom or small range regardless the steel grade.

I am much to lazy to read anything about 1095 but would expect it to be harder than 58 without getting brittle. That means in general. If there was something wrong with the knife,i wouldn´t count it on the hardness.

It is a matter of fact that steel quality can vary in simple tool steel grades and you know after you have bought the knife. If you take a ball bearing grade, you can expect a more precise production aiming for fine grain, but that is no guaranty for a perfect knife.

Taking the word "cheap" i say that, looking at my Ka-bar 1085 for a larger blade, i am fine, i wouldn´t have expected anything else. Seems for me like a good batch and heat treatment, top notch for the small money.

I simply don´t know, how others are doing, but from the grade i think you can expect a positivly very satisfying knife.

Think twice.

 

[bladeprince]

Which one?

Comparing custom or small range heat treatment to mass heat treatment you surely will find better results in the custom or small range regardless the steel grade.

I am much to lazy to read anything about 1095 but would expect it to be harder than 58 without getting brittle. That means in general. If there was something wrong with the knife,i wouldn´t count it on the hardness.

It is a matter of fact that steel quality can vary in simple tool steel grades and you know after you have bought the knife. If you take a ball bearing grade, you can expect a more precise production aiming for fine grain, but that is no guaranty for a perfect knife.

Taking the word "cheap" i say that, looking at my Ka-bar 1085 for a larger blade, i am fine, i wouldn´t have expected anything else. Seems for me like a good batch and heat treatment, top notch for the small money.

I simply don´t know, how others are doing, but from the grade i think you can expect a positivly very satisfying knife.

Think twice.

You also make a good point. The knife is from Tops and if there was a mass problem with their 1095 (since most of their knives are made from it), one would think that either they would have heard about it and corrected it or they would eventually be out of business