Questions about A2 steel

Not at all...

I was using you there in the general sense, not as a personal second person pronoun, which I do all the time even in the middle of a direct responce and forgetting that the other individual isn't aware that I have switched subjects. I was just agreeing with you, I should have opened with "For those of dissimilar opinion ..." or similar.

-Cliff
 
After reading through this thread, I think I'm going to order a handmade knife in A2. I'd like to see what it can do at 61-62RC
 
I made my first knives out of A2. Also I made knife out of ATS34 and CPM S90V. A2 is easyest steel to deal with in terms of grinding etc - way way easy then ATS34 and CPM S90 V (I also grinded ZDP189 - and this is hardest). I can tell this based on how often I had to change belts. Also it is very cheap - which was the reason I start my blademaking with A2.

I had HT fro Baul Bos on it and this is one of my best performing knives. However it is not stainless and you have to remember to wipe blade out after use.

As I undersand Mission also making knives out of A2 - even folders as I remember.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
I am a begining stock removal knifemaker and I am considering trying some A2
and was wondering at what hardness it is "best" at. If it loses toughness when it is underhardened what would be the best combo of hardness and toughness.
A nessmuk style knife of A2 with a 61 rockwell would be nice. Normally I don't want knives that are too hard but for special situations like a elk skinner or
woodworking knives a steel that was optimal for that hardness would be perfect.

Another reasons some companies underharden steel is so they can sell a knife made of the latest greatest wonder steel but the average consumer can still sharpen it. It seems wrong to me to waste vanadium and moly and other expensive additives just for marketing.
 
I asked Paul Bos for optimal hardness and it was 60-61 as I remember.

Excuse to make knife sharpenable for "average" customer is very popular. In particular Mike Stuart answer me this way on KnifeForums when I asked about using different steels (SRS15...). I can not accept it because any sharpening device, any abrasive has hardness way bigger then steel hardness. Only one exclusion I am aware of - vanadium carbides in CPM S90V, but again it is noticeble when abrasive is same size or smaller then vanadium carbides (1 micron) so it start to be noticable on Fine Spyderco Ceramic, which is beyond I guess "average" customer anyway.

I do not really know what this average customer meant to use for sharpening. It will be interesting for me to try this out with some of my supersteels...

As I understand problems with sharpening happens usually not because of too wear resistant steel but mostly because of absence of simple skills and experience. I guess at the point of average customer expectation - just to be able to cut, average sharpening tool will sharpen any supersteel.

A2 is excellent steel at 60-61 HRC, it is very easy to grind and it is very cheap. I may understand that difference in performance between it and some supersteels may be not as big as differencs in price, however in any area for little bit of quality usually you have to pay way more - dependancy always not linear, but rather exponential.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
I was using you there in the general sense, not as a personal second person pronoun, which I do all the time even in the middle of a direct responce and forgetting that the other individual isn't aware that I have switched subjects. I was just agreeing with you, I should have opened with "For those of dissimilar opinion ..." or similar.

-Cliff

Actually, upon rereading it that comes across clearly enough--I just misinterpreted the first time. Serves me right for watching the History Channel whilst foruming. I can never remember who said it, but it's one of my favorite quotes, "Multitasking: the applied art of doing several mediocre jobs simultaneously." :D
 
Excuse to make knife sharpenable for "average" customer is very popular.

Everything you do less than optimal tends to make the steel softer, however lot of people will promote softening steels to make them easier to sharpen so it isn't a problem unique to Stewart. He is just using a well known "fact". Stewart's customers tend to be willing to believe anything he says without any proof and he takes advatange of that which isn't surprising.

For a long time he said he was hardening A2 for "maximum grain growth" which shows a complete lack of understanding of heat treatement of steel on a basic level as grain growth is a negative. It makes steels more brittle while they are weaker. I noted that was a glaring problem and he changed it but he still has the temper/cryo description inverted.

Cryogenics is for converting retained austenite and inducing carbide precipitation, it is not for stress relief. In fact cold treatments actually put the steel under stress by forming untempered martensite which is why they have to be tempered after the cold treatment. Tempering is specifically for stress relief, that is why you do it because as untempered martensite is so stressed it can crack on its own. It can even crack during the hardening if you do it too quickly.

Grain refinement comes mainly in the preperation before the heat treatment, the rolling by the mill. The grain of the steel can also be blown in hardening but generally not refined unless you are using the word to mean something different than the standard materials defination or you run normalization cycling for some reason instead of the mill.

He also promoted A2 as being very expensive to work/buy which is no one used it. Again, shenannigans. It is common to use very high carbide steels in modern cutlery which are harder to grind, and more expensive to buy, heat treat and grind.

Regardless of all of that, the steel and geometry are much more coherent with the promoted tasks of the knives than a lot of cutlery which often have all elements of the design in contradiction. A2 is a nice steel for a wood craft knife and is designed to work in acute edges because it has a low volume of very small carbides, similar to AEB-L and other steels.

-Cliff
 
Has anyone ever experienced A2 chipping? I have an out of production Bark River that was brand new. I was think of selling it but last night decided to keep it. I therefore wanted to put a better edge on it and it started chipping severly (using a Sharpmaker). After a lot work, I was able to get rid of most, but not all, of the chipped edge. However, now the edge is starting to have a "belly" to it because of the material I've removed. I'm going to send it to BK but was just wondering if A2 chipping has ever been a problem.

One more point, this was a first production run of this model so maybe the steel was harder then they made it later??? Just a guess.

Thanks
 
I have few Bark River knivesand never have a problems with them, espacially chipping. This is one of the toughest steel and not suppose to chip easy. I cut brass with my own A2 heat treated by Boss and it shows best performance on this test.

This thread turns into some kind of court against Bark River and I think this is wrong. Bark River knives I know are pretty good. Also The use good choise of steel A2 and Sandvic-12C27 which I may only wellcome.

Mike Stewart as I understand olderst player in this bussiness and know how to make knives - no doubt about this! He make his reputation as a knifemaker while ago and make popular several brands which now is almost antient - BlackJack etc... You can not disregard decades of knifemaking experience.

So let us focus on the topic of this thread - A2 steel is excellent steel and only problem is it is not corrosion resistant at all. If you like to make your knife youself - this is the best choise, because it is cheap, widely awailable and easy to work with.

It need more attention from the customer then other steel and this is why manufacturers preffers stainless or semystainless steels I guess.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
I have few Bark River knivesand never have a problems with them, espacially chipping. This is one of the toughest steel and not suppose to chip easy. I cut brass with my own A2 heat treated by Boss and it shows best performance on this test.
This thread turns into some kind of court against Bark River and I think this is wrong. Bark River knives I know are pretty good. Also The use good choise of steel A2 and Sandvic-12C27 which I may only wellcome.
Mike Stewart as I understand olderst player in this bussiness and know how to make knives - no doubt about this! He make his reputation as a knifemaker way and make popular several brands which now is almost antient - BlackJack etc... You can not disregard decades of knifemaking experience.
So let us focus on the topic of this thread - A2 steel is excellent steel and only problem is it is not corrosion resistant at all. If you like to make your knife youself - this is the best choise, because it is cheap, widely awailable and easy to work with.
It need more attention from the customer then other steel and this is why manufacturers preffers stainless or semystainless steels I guess.
Thanks, Vassili.


Look....I started this thread. My questions were about A2, not Bark River. Nothing negative has been said about Bark River on this thread that I have seen. I'm also involved on a similar thread on the other forum and nothing but positive information about Bark River and Mike Stewart has be exchanged.

What I posted about the chipping is just the truth. It also happened to occur last night. I'm not indicting anyone about anything. I'm just trying to find out information. If what happened to my knife is an anomaly , I’m sure Mike will want to analyze it. So you don't have to play "defense attorney" for Mike or Bark River. At least not from me. I have the highest respect for him and his company. I own five of their knives and think they are all great. That’s why I asked the question, because I was surprised. You are the one that is turning this into something else, not me. I just asked a simple question.

There was a thread awhile back about S30V chipping and many knife manufactures were mentioned in the thread. It had nothing to do with putting any of these companies down. It had to do will information exchange and possible suggestions for the cause. What do think I should do, keep it a secret?

In short, I resent the implication that I am doing anything but telling the truth about what happened and that I’m trying to stain the reputation of a well respected knife maker and his company. Mike, if you read this, I hope I’ve made this clear.
 
Since you know about the BRKT forum I think that is the best place to ask about your BRKT blade chipping instead of fueling a cross forum arguement. I'm sure BRKT will take good care of you.
 
Since you know about the BRKT forum I think that is the best place to ask about your BRKT blade chipping instead of fueling a cross forum arguement. I'm sure BRKT will take good care of you.

I have and they are. I sure didn't intend for anything like this to happen. Strange how things come about sometimes.

I was just asking about A2 steel and I think the question is still valid for this forum. I was not singling out BK. I love their knives.

Just like the S30V thread awhile back. I mentioned that a BM Ruckus that I had just received was chipping. Am I condemning Benchmade? Heck no. It just happened to be one of their knives, that's all.

But your point is well taken and I think I'll focus on the other forum for this question. Also, I think I'll keep the company's name out of future topics like this and just talk about the steel. That seems to be the safest way to avert this sort of thing.

Thanks
 
Has anyone ever experienced A2 chipping?

Yes, I have seen it happen on the Reeve's Project (softer than BRK&T) and other knives, Elliott and Beach have documented it well on A2 planer blades by multiple manufacturers. It isn't simply because they are too hard - Reeve's blade is in fact very soft, however the relationship between toughness and hardness isn't that trivial for most steels. You also have to look at issues like carbide precipitation and levels of retained austenite.

-Cliff
 
Look....I started this thread. My questions were about A2, not Bark River. Nothing negative has been said about Bark River on this thread that I have seen.

Sorry, I am not pointing at you or anybody else, I feel uncomfortable myself mentioning Mike Stewart name in regards to "easy sharpening excuse". This is like overall impression of where thred moving on my opinion. Sorry I did not mean anybody personaly.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
If you have had two different knives chip it could be something with your sharpmaker or the way you have it set up? One thing is they were both harder than averege steels. This is an interesting subject. Downie supply(great to deal with) has A2 in stock so I might have to get some for the nessmuk style knife I
have been wanting to make for a while.
I don't think the problem with the average consumers knife sharpening abilities is the tools they use but how long it takes. They don't have the
skill and don't spend long enough at it.
If I want to make a throwing knife that is 49 to 54 rockwell , I would want to use
a steel that was optimal for that hardness like 1050.
If I was making a woodworking knife that needed a hard strong narrow blade
I would want a high end tool steel.
Any knife designed for EDC or tactical should not be harder than 59 and for hard use 56 would be better so using a steel that is optimium for +60 is a waste.
Personaly I would prefer a knife made of 440C that has been cryoed and treated right to one made of a super steel like S30V that has been under hardened.
 
Sorry, I am not pointing at you or anybody else, I feel uncomfortable myself mentioning Mike Stewart name in regards to "easy sharpening excuse". This is like overall impression of where thred moving on my opinion. Sorry I did not mean anybody personaly.

Thanks, Vassili.

That's OK. Thanks for the response....peace.
 
The recommended hardness for A2 from David Boye's book (the only one I have that has a recommended hardness) is 62-63 HRc. He says you can get 1-2 more points through cold/cryo treatment.
 
In general you never underharden steels to gain toughness because the rest of the properties suffer far too much. Consider for example A2 vs A6. A6 at 60/61 HRC has a similar abrasive wear resistance as A2 at 55/56 HRC and A6 is still tougher (unnotched izod). A6 will thus both match the wear resistance of A2 at that lower hardness, still be tougher even though it is much harder and will therefore be much stronger with a higher compression resistance. On top of all of that it is also cheaper and easier to grind. Of course the reason you use A2 is that it can get harder than A6. Carpenter makes this point strongly in "Advanced tooling materials", which is where the above data comes from, the same general idea is seen constantly in metallurgy texts such as Bryson's book on heat treating. There is a reason for the wealth of tool steels available.

-Cliff
 
In reference to the A2 chipping I experienced. When I started sharpening the knife correctly, it stopped and they are now gone and blade looks good. It was my own ingnorance. This is the first convex blade I have owned and I forgot about the different sharpening method needed for that style of grind. I was just sharpening it like it has a "V" bevel on the Sharpmaker, using the rod is the "V" position, not laying flat.

Regards
 
It was my own ingnorance. This is the first convex blade I have owned and I forgot about the different sharpening method needed for that style of grind. I was just sharpening it like it has a "V" bevel on the Sharpmaker, using the rod is the "V" position, not laying flat.

That would not cause it to chip, many convex ground blades are sharpen in that manner. Fowler and Fallkniven for example have v-bevels on their convex ground blades sharpened just as you noted. Forget about convex vs flat and think about angles/thickness.

-Cliff
 
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