Questions about sori...

Phillip Patton

Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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I just forged a Japanese style short sword (wakizashi?) and I'm wondering how straight it should be prior to heat treat. From what I've read, it sounds like water makes it curve one way, and oil the other. So I'm wondering if a fast oil like Parks #50 will make it curve the same as water? Does anyone have experience using #50 for longer (24") clay quenched blades?
 
Ummmm.... I'm a noob, and I've never forged, but from what I understand, if you're doing differential tempering, it can only bend towards the spine. The edge gets quenched much more quickly, and thus gets "frozen" in its expanded state. The body and spine quench more slowly, so they have time to contract from the cooling. That way, the only way for it to bend would be away from the (hard) edge.
 
You'd think that, but i had a big bowie blade take a quite dramatic recurve when i had the clay too thick...no idea how it happens, but that point dropped. All my others have risen as you describe...
 
The quenchant doesn't have as much affect on the sori as heat does. I'd had a waki curve inward and outward on #50. If it cuves tip down, you didn't have enough even heat.
 
The sori develops as a result of the blade ending with two different steel structures.
Brine or Water is the usual quenchant because of its speed (fast oil will also work).
When the clay coated blade is brought to critical temperature all the steel is austentite.Upon the first quench ( usually about 3-5 seconds) the blade will bend down-wards.This is because the edge (uncovered by the clay) converts rapidly to martensite,contracting as it does (under the clay it is still austentite).After a few seconds out of the quenchant,the blade is plunged back in to allow the area under the clay to cool and harden.It cools slower (missing the martensite nose on the curve) and ends up as pearlite.Pearlite contracts much more than the martensite does,and thus makes the blade suddenly curve up-wards.
If all goes well,a straight blade (before quench) will end up with a nice little sori.The area where the pearlite meets the martensite ends up as troosite,which creates the hamon.
If all does not go well there is a sharp PING!!! and half the blade falls into the bottom of the quench trough.

So, a straight blade will end up with a slight sori.A blade with a down-ward curve will end up straight.And a blade with a little up-ward curve will end up with a tachi size sori.The end result is a product of a bit of luck and a whole lot of skill in forging.At best the smith can only guess a range of expected sori.

Experience and consistency are the best way to learn this subject.This is the reason Japanese smiths try not change their steel in any way at all,so they can get repeatable results.A particular school (forge) will use the same source for centuries if they can.Many of the "legend and Lore" things about sword smiths are because they are shooting for repeatable success.It may not actually matter if the blade is quenched pointing true north,but if you do it that way EVERY TIME you will have ruled out one possible variable. Eventually, the smelting,forging and quenching become ceremonial (almost to a point of mystical fanaticism sometimes),and then the Smith can expect consistent results.It is easy for a new maker to assume that if you do what Masamune did,you will get the same result.That would only be so if you were doing it with Masamune's tools,steel,forge,and did everything exactly the same as he did.(And you still wouldn't get a Masamune grade blade without many,many years of practice.)

As a final comment,this same practice is what makes one maker a legend and another frustrated.
Mete may use assayed steel,High tech ovens with argon injectors,and salt pots to get the most from the metal.Mark Williams may use junk yard steel,bless his forge area with chicken blood before starting to forge,heat the blade with a torch,and quench buck naked,facing north,at midnight,in a vat of bear grease .Both make outstanding knives,it is not the difference in method that you should see here.It is the fact that they ALWAYS do it the same way.
Learn what work well for YOU,practice it regularly,repeat successful attempts until they are the expected norm.Jumping around a lot in technique and materials will only confuse you.
Stacy
 
Ok, thanks everybody. I just ordered some #50 and AAA oil from Heatbath, so when it gets here, I'll try it and see what happens.
 
I always understood that that upward curve was the cause of the rapid change to martensite on the thinner edge. I've done a full, uninterrupted quench and got sori. As per Verhoeven: "The density of martensite is less than that of the austenite from which it forms. This means that when a given volume of austenite transforms to martensite, the volume of the martensite needs to increase."
 
A quench in the right speed quenchant will cause a sori on an unclayed blade if the geometry is right.
 
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Since we are taught by experience and traditional wisdom that steel contracts when cooled we tend to get stuck in that rut. Steel does indeed contract while cooled and expands when heated, but...

Much more major expansion and contractions will occur when there are changes in the atomic arrangements. Steel expands when heated until it reaches the transformation temperature, then it contracts since austenite has a denser atomic stacking (face centered cubic) than normal body centered iron (alpha iron). But more importantly for this discussion, steel contracts when cooled until it makes a transformation from austenite to something else, where it will go to a lesser density atomic stacking and expand. Normally this will want to be around 1000F when pearlite forms, but if we cool fast enough to avoid this it will occur at around 450F when martensite will form. Martensite is a distorted body centered tetragonal, so it is the most expansive of all. So too the contrary of what we often hear steel actually expands heavily when it is hardened. The reason for preheats by industry and my fiddling with marquenching is to compensate for all this expanding and contracting in differing cross sections.

Inducing a curvature in a blade quenching can be real tricky thing due to the critical and complicated timing that must take place. For sori to be induced water works best because of its timing with simple steels. The spine must cool slow enough through the pearlite range in order to form that product, but not so slow that it does not form it before the edge can reach 400F. or below.

If the spine cools properly to form pearlite, there will be an expansion that will momentarily cause the tip to go down before rebounding and coming back up, when the edge begins to harden. The pearlite formed, it will act as an anchor when the martensite begins its massive expansion, pulling the blade into a sori curve.

The reverse curve in oil has been a mystery for some time and I have worked for a while now to get to the bottom of it. I had been sitting on my conclusions for use in an article, but I have noticed at least one smithing savvy metallurgists on another forum (Bertie Laroux) has figured it out, so what the heck. For some time smiths assumed it was just the timing of oil was off and that the pearlite was too complete and pushed the edge down for the less traumatic oil-formed martensite to recurve, but I noticed that it would also happen with O1 blades quenched point down in oil or salts- no pearlite going on there, and I could overcome the problem on bare blades by quenching spine down, so I doubted traditional wisdom (not like me at all ;)), and began studying the issue.

This is what I came up with; Oil it seems cannot cool the spine quick enough to lose the more ductile austenite in the spine before martensitic expansion begins. Under these conditions the spine doesn't anchor anything but instead gets pulled along with the expansion, causing no significant curvature. Then when the elongated spine does complete its expansive transformation the rigid edge is instead the anchor and the blade curves in reverse. *

Phillip, #50 is not fast enough to induce the curvature that water will, so you may want to do some preforming and hope that it will remain about the same. Many who do the Japanese style quenching also use much lower austenitizing temperatures to facilitate quicker cooling curves.

*This is based upon the best data I have gathered so far, as always things could change.
 
I have gotten Parks 50 to create sori in my blades -- even in smaller blades that I was not expecting it in, but I've never done a waki or such in water (don't have the cajones for that!) so I don't know how much of a difference it would be.
 
Burchtree said:
I have gotten Parks 50 to create sori in my blades -- even in smaller blades that I was not expecting it in, but I've never done a waki or such in water (don't have the cajones for that!) so I don't know how much of a difference it would be.

I have gotten a little myself, but it was always quite minor compared to water, which I also lost the nerve for years ago. Your results sound exciting to me, though. How much sori have you been able to induce? Would you mind if I pick your brain on your process and technique sometime?
 
Yes, do share!
I might just try water with this one, since the steel is "mystery" steel, and was free. Wouldn't break my heart as much if half of it ended up at the bottom of the quench tank. :D
Does #50 produce a nice hamon? (assuming everything else is right)
 
Believe it or not Stacy, I have come into the light over the past few years and have actually abandoned unknown steels, witches brews for quenchent and even use a digitally controlled oven.

but....

I still say this phrase every time I quench a blade.

"Hotsinnanoof feesipinanoof snobisesoufeesis"
 
Phillip -- 50 can be used to create a nice hamon, but once again, it depends on the clay, heat, timing etc.

Kevin -- I'd be more than pleased to let you pick my brain, but there isn't much there to pick. :D

This blade got quenched twice -- both times were done vertically in Parks 50. The first quench gave me negative curvature and on the second heat, I gave it a little "cheater" curve (very minor) and came out with this:
waki1.jpg


Feeling that thing move was creepy. :eek:
 
I have a blade that went from negative curvature to sori and in the process tore itself apart. Two huge cracks that split into curved "Y" shapes that followed the clay line. It was a spectacular failure as I walked to the oven with it. I have it hanging on my shop wall as a testiment to wasted time :)
 
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