Questions on Emerson Models

[k831]

Hello all,

Looking to pick up a new knife, and research (google fu) led me to Emerson. Searching through their web page it looked like the company produced knives with better ergonomics than I had yet come across. The handle designs looked very promising and they offered several blade shapes/designs (recurve, spear and drop points etc) in configurations more suited to a self defense / fighting knife than most other companies.

I haven't made the purchase yet, and am looking for thoughts from those of you that own one or both of the models I am considering. I have narrowed it down to either the Commander or the CQC 11. The fully recurve blade on the commander looks like it would handle all slicing applications very well, although I wonder if it has sacrificed some piercing ability. The CQC 11 looks to be a bit more in the middle.


Anyhow, what are your thoughts on each knife? Do any of you have both, and if so can you give a comparison?


Also, I have come across some reoccurring criticisms of Emerson's, and I am curious if you can offer your experiences here too;

- Pivot screw consistently comes loose (not a big deal, as I'm sure it isn't hard to adjust)

- Blade can develop horizontal play. Tightening enough to eliminate makes it tough to open

- Chisel ground, left side is cutting corners (I'm not overly concerned with this one either, really)

- Weak lock up. (I am used to Axis lock, as I currently carry a BM 520.)
- Liner locks are failure prone
- Emerson's liners are far too thin, at .05 or 1.15mm
- Titanium isn't strong enough at that width

- 154cm is good steel, but Emerson's is too soft ( 57-59 RC)

I know there are always naysayers, no matter how good a product. Since I have no experience with Emerson, I hoped some of you could shed some light on those two models, as well as on some of these criticisms that seem more common.


Thanks in advance. Any help will be appreciated.

 

[STR]

Emerson's don't suffer from anything different than other companies liner locks but they do stand out in that compared to a Kershaw the Emerson needs a longer break in to smooth things out. They do not tend to smooth out until you've used it a while with the EKI brand and once you recognize this in my opinion you are better off. The thinner lock has nothing much to do with how well the lock can work what plays against the thinner lock is that it can indent and end up looking like the picture I'm posting. This is from spine whacking by the way and no, I did not do this. It was sent to me for vertical blade play and a frame lock conversion. Thicker locks hold up better to this type of abuse but they still suffer from it.

I recommend with anyone purchasing a new in the box liner lock to break it in good and make sure the lock is moving in behind the blade well enough to be counted on for normal use reliability and function to secure your fingers from harm. Personally I'd buy a CQC12 or HD7 from the one stop knife shop while he still has some in stock because those are the best knives Emerson made and both were discontinued.

I prefer the thicker lined CQC13 over the two you mentioned both for the thicker lock and the great handle ergos. Thats such a great handle. I like it better than the 12. The 14 is a top contender and I love that handle also.

Between the two you selected I'd go with the 11. The Commander is nice though but you are correct it will be more a slicer than tip penetrator.

Liner locks have inherent flaws and can work against you but they are plenty strong in most uses. What you need to be sure of soon after buying it is that the spine of the blade can take a load under pressure and that the lock does not release when loaded but clear your fingers from the path of the blade first. I always advise to wait until you've snapped it open and closed probably 500 or more times before doing that and never spine whack the thinner models. Thats what will lead to vertical play and end up indenting your lock like the one in this link. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=95216&d=1208822756


Emerson's Ergos are the best in the business. I do prefer the frame locks myself though. Many carry and use Emerson liner locks. Those that don't care for the liner locks say so not to be nay sayers so much as they try to be good intentioned. You read more reports of liner lock defeats than any other lock type but they all can defeat no doubt. There are some of axis locks defeating also. Its all about common sense usage in the end.

STR

 

[MORIMOTOM]

- Pivot screw consistently comes loose (not a big deal, as I'm sure it isn't hard to adjust)

i like to find the sweet spot with the pivot screw then loctite it in.

sweet spot= no blade play, still opens smoothly.

- Blade can develop horizontal play. Tightening enough to eliminate makes it tough to open

the above solves this concern.

- Chisel ground, left side is cutting corners (I'm not overly concerned with this one either, really)

most emersons are not true chisel grinds. they are also not traditional v grinds.

there is a primary bevel on one side (the edge), and secondary bevels on both sides.

- Weak lock up. (I am used to Axis lock, as I currently carry a BM 520.)
- Liner locks are failure prone
- Emerson's liners are far too thin, at .05 or 1.15mm
- Titanium isn't strong enough at that width

ive never had any liner lock fail on me.

- 154cm is good steel, but Emerson's is too soft ( 57-59 RC)

57-59 rc is where most steels tend to fall anyway.

I know there are always naysayers, no matter how good a product. Since I have no experience with Emerson, I hoped some of you could shed some light on those two models, as well as on some of these criticisms that seem more common.

Thanks in advance. Any help will be appreciated.[/QUOTE]

dont have the two you are looking at, but i have many emersons.

the ergos are really second to none. i find the 13 fits my hand best, but the commander series are very similar in shape and feel. i just dont care for recurve blades.

 

[gcgcgc]

Since the two posts above were written by professionals and address all your questions, I'll only add my agreement and say don't worry about the haters, my Emerson Snubby (perfected by Mr. Tom Krein....and sometime soon sporting an STR clip) is my favorite knife.

 

[Lycosa]

Emerson Knife???
Get one!

 

[SIFU1A]

FWIW neither the '11 or the commander are big favorites of mine, nothing wrong with 'e, i just like others better (ie the SOCFK, '7, '13'12 & '8)

*pivot screws can and will loosen on anything, a bit of loctite or teflon tape will end that problem though.

*i've never had a problem with blade play on any EKI.

*the CG is something ya just have to get used to on an EKI, unless ya rebevel it of course, imho they cut just fine for most stuff & are easier to sharpen once ya get the hang of it, and will get plenty sharp too.

*as far as weak lock up or liner failure EKI's are no weaker or more prone to failure than any other liner lock, imho waving or inertia opening is kinda hard on 'em but if ya have problems EKI will adjust it for ya usually for free. imho the EKI liner lock is equal to anyone elses liner locks, be it spyderco, BM, anyone, liner locks will wear though, anyones, and if ya wave it a lot or inertia open it a lot ya are gonna have to get adjustments done, usually, one bud of mine has a '99 commander, with the thin locks, and its his work knife, & is beat all to hell, 99% of the time when he opens it he waves or inertia's it, and he's done that thousands of times thru the yrs, and it still engages just were it should and locks up just fine.

*imho liner thickness isnt nearly as important as it being fitted correctly, i know of a lotta knives with great rep's with thin liners, like the spyderco military to name one, so if its fitted correctly the thickness makes very little or no difference.

*imho the 154 is fine, i can remember a few yrs back when 154 was just getting popular and it was the bomb then, and it will still work fine, i havent heard much about anyone thinking its too soft, thats a new one to me and not true imho.
*ti is plenty strong at that width see above about the millie.

 

[k831]

Thanks for all the info and insights everyone. Lots of helpful stuff.

I do find it funny that the two I narrowed it down to seem pretty unpopular. Ha. Maybe that’s due to a different set of criteria? I’ll mention that in a minute, as it seems I’ll get good feedback.

- I’ll be sure to break in the knife, and check for solid lock up.
- Find the “sweet spot” and apply some loctite. No problem.
- As mentioned, further digging shows the hardness used to be just fine for the knifes purpose

I have several EDC’s that I really like, and several knives I use for general cutting purposes and chores that I carry on campouts and hikes etc.

What I am shopping for right now is a knife/knives that are best suited as a fighting knife. All other uses can be forfeited if the knife excels in that area. NOTE: no I do not plan on getting into a knife fight – no mall-ninja delusions. However, I have studied martial arts / wrestling /boxing my entire life. In terms of edged weapons, Kenpo and Kali for years now. Often we work live blades. All the knives I have purchased in the past I evaluated from a pragmatic or utility point of view with the side note of “it could be used for self defense if it had to.”

I don’t want to blow a ton of money, but at this point in life, I can afford not to be entirely practical, and pick up a couple of knives purely for being a knife used for no other purpose than hand to hand combat range.

A perfect fighting knife, in my opinion, has EXCELLENT egros (hence my interest in the Emerson) in both long held position and short held. Positive forward thumb ramp. Quick and balanced in the hand. Provides good grip when sweaty or bloody.

Fast deployment, but not assisted. Solid lock up.

I like a recurve or flare design, as I believe this a benefit in the slicing type application a fighting knife would likely see, but more so, a recurve blade allows you to trap with your knife hand, when an opponent pulls free, he is cut without any motion on my part. In a purely fighting knife, I would prefer a hollow grind. My preference would be for a spear point, as it has the point of the blade in the centerline of the knife. Second best would be a drop point.

Anyhow, I am enjoying learning from this site, and enjoying shopping for a knife with such “single-minded” purpose, regardless of practicality.
I enjoy my BM 520. Some of the others I have considered, outside of the Emerson’s I have mentioned, are the BM Skirmish and Kershaw ZT 0200.

Thanks you guys, for all the info!

 

[STR]

I have a BlackHawk Garra and not the new Garra II cheaper model but the Garra first model they did in S30V made in the USA. That may be one to look up too for a fighting knife. It was designed by Michael Janich and they have some others with fine ergos made for what you are looking for. Emerson is a fine choice for that too from what I've read from other professionals that use them for training.

STR

 

[STR]

Here is the one I have. This is a well built knife with a thick set of liners made of titanium. S30V blade steel and mine is the combo edge. I have never got the blade as sharp as I'd like compared to other S30V but it does do what its supposed to and feels really secure in the hand. The edge grind and primary grind are thicker probably for strength so that may be why its harder to get a good slicer out of it for some materials but it would slice the crap out flesh like no tomorrow I'm sure. I had trouble finding this one but the Garra II is just like it only made in Japan and has thinner liners and AUS8 blade steel. I don't know if they discontinued this higher end line or not but I didn't pay this for mine. I think I got it shipped for sub $160 off Ebay. If you decide you want to see it closer I can take some scans of mine but weigh pros and cons of both. Its just another line of fighting knives and I wasn't sure you knew about them.

EDIT: Wow! I totally forgot I already loaded up some review of it when I bought it. Completely spaced that I did this but on a whim hit the search and it was the first thing that came up. Here ya go. And don't take this the wrong way. I'm not trying to talk you out of the Emerson and I don't want to sell mine. I just think these are well built too and for what you are looking for they seem to fit the bill. I believe you should look at all available info for what you want and then make a better more educated decision based on how you say more than one is not likely and all. Anyway, here ya go http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=587174&highlight=Garra
http://www.productwizard.com/blackhawk-blades-garra-folding-knife.html

STR

 

[pvicenzi]

Can't speak from experience so my opinion isn't worth much, but I would think EKI knives are very suited to defense use.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

What I am shopping for right now is a knife/knives that are best suited as a fighting knife. All other uses can be forfeited if the knife excels in that area. NOTE: no I do not plan on getting into a knife fight – no mall-ninja delusions. However, I have studied martial arts / wrestling /boxing my entire life. In terms of edged weapons, Kenpo and Kali for years now. Often we work live blades. All the knives I have purchased in the past I evaluated from a pragmatic or utility point of view with the side note of “it could be used for self defense if it had to.”

I don’t want to blow a ton of money, but at this point in life, I can afford not to be entirely practical, and pick up a couple of knives (although unlikely) purely for being a knife used for no other purpose than hand to hand combat range.

A perfect fighting knife, in my opinion, has EXCELLENT egros (hence my interest in the Emerson) in both long held position and short held. Positive forward thumb ramp. Quick and balanced in the hand. Provides good grip when sweaty or bloody.

Fast deployment, but not assisted. Solid lock up.

I like a recurve or flare design, as I believe this a benefit in the slicing type application a fighting knife would likely see, but more so, a recurve blade allows you to trap with your knife hand, when an opponent pulls free, he is cut without any motion on my part. In a purely fighting knife, I would prefer a hollow grind. My preference would be for a spear point, as it has the point of the blade in the centerline of the knife. Second best would be a drop point.

Anyhow, I am enjoying learning from this site, and enjoying shopping for a knife with such “single-minded” purpose, regardless of practicality.
I enjoy my BM 520. Some of the others I have considered, outside of the Emerson’s I have mentioned, are the BM Skirmish and Kershaw ZT 0200.

Emerson has a few models that are primarily utilitarian, but his focus is on self-defense. The two I would suggest for the ergonomics alone are the Commander and CQC-8 which have essentially the same handle -- take your choice of blade shape.

Both of these are v-grinds, although the edge bevel is one-sided ( a chisel grind) and this has almost no effect on use. I was surprised with both my Commanders on how well the blade would pierce. The tip is obtuse but the edge is exceedingly sharp.

I do agree with STR that if you can get the framelock CQC-12, go for it, but I have a weakness for clip points, and you might not see that as the best self-defense profile.

 

[k831]

STR,

Thanks for the suggestion. I don't feel like you are talking me out of Emerson at all, I appreciate any recommendations. A few months ago, I hardly know anything about Emerson. I had Benchmade and Spyderco knives. Now two of the manufacturers on the top of my list ar Emerson and Kershaw ZT.... glad someone suggested those to me!

Both of these are v-grinds, although the edge bevel is one-sided ( a chisel grind) and this has almost no effect on use. I was surprised with both my Commanders on how well the blade would pierce. The tip is obtuse but the edge is exceedingly sharp.

That would be my primary concern with a Commander - poor penetration and piercing ability. Sounds like you haven't found that to be the case.

 

[STR]

I tell ya if someone had a CQC12 and was coming at me I'd be very afraid. I don't have any trouble seeing it work in SD sitations. I do agree there are probably better choices but I think it would suffice really. If its any value at all Ernie has said many times that the 12 is his favorite model of all the ones he offers which just puzzles me all that much more as to why in the world he would discontinue his personal favorite and what he carries on him personally. But I guess he can't let his personal feelings interfere with business decisions.

The only real draw back to the 12 is that most of the locks stick so bad when new that its going to take a few days or week or more of serious opening and closing and thumb work out to even break the thing in to where you can tolerate it. I've bought two new and both were monster stickers. Its hard to believe any defeats would be an issue with a lock that sticks though so effectively it probably is close to a fixed blade in the hand. I sure like mine and its the only big folder I really like to be honest. I've gotten rid of all the others including at least one of every ZT model I've owned.

STR

 

[Esav Benyamin]

My first Commander stuck very tight but loosened up with time. The second was fine. My CQC-12 is so easy to release, it's almost too easy. I prefer a little stickiness. But it's not a hazard by any means. Guess what? All of mine were after-market, off our Exchange forums. (Pre-used = pre-tested )

 

[STR]

My first Commander stuck very tight but loosened up with time. The second was fine. My CQC-12 is so easy to release, it's almost too easy. I prefer a little stickiness. But it's not a hazard by any means. Guess what? All of mine were after-market, off our Exchange forums. (Pre-used = pre-tested )

Smart way to snag them actually. I snagged one new for my best friend and he paid me for it later had it a couple days and brought it to me asking if I'd break it in for him cause the lock sticks. I laughed big laughs and gave it back to him. I told him, "you ain't that special!" Seriously some of the best Emerson's I've snagged have been good condition used ones and they've been the smoothest because they's already broke in that way.:thumbup:

STR

 

[Haze]

I use EKIs everyday and carry them for all sorts of stuff.

When I was teaching MAs I used Emersons allot and recommended them to people who
were interested in getting a good knife for SD but didnt have fixed blades as an option.
I used them when I was a Chainsaw operator and still use one on the odd jobs I do for people now and then.
I pretty much always take an EKI folder to compliment a fixed blade when I'm out in the Bush.
That could be back home in Scotland or here in Taiwan, it makes no difference, the Emersons have been great in every task I'v used them for.

:thumbup:

 

[k831]

Haze, which Emersons do you carry and why?

On a side note, which part of Scotland are you from? I lived there for a several years and have seen a lot of the country as I traveled much while there. I lived in the boarders for a while, Galashiels mostly. Lived in Greenock / Port Glasgow, Paisley, Knightswood, Dumbarton and Inverness. I miss it often.

 

[Haze]

The EKI I use the most is the 12, its got everything I need in a folder so its right near, if not at the top.
I also carry the Persian quite allot, again its got all the good stuff I want in a folder.
I also use the mini-7 and kerambit a fair too bit but not as much as the 12 and P-Tac.

As to Scotland, I lived in Edinburgh but spent allot of time in Inverness. When I was with the forestry Com.
I used to do allot of work on the Black Isle as well as the big estates near Dingwall and east of inverness.
I see you spent more time on the west side.

:thumbup:

 

[SIFU1A]

imho any of the EKI's are fine for SD, thats what they are designed for, really imho most are more suited for SD than utility.

the commander & '11 are good knives, i havent had an '11 but have handled a couple and have owned 2 or 3 commanders thru the yrs, in fact the 1st EKI i had was a commander IIRC, why someone would like one and not another is like why some folks like red sauce on enchiladas and others like green, its all subjective, and neither one is bad, i usually like the red though myself lol, and prefer a few others to the commander or '11,

between the commander & '11 i would probably go with the commander FWIW,

 

[k831]

I meant to ask as well, which finish do you guys prefer on the Emersons?