Questions / Opinions about firestarters

[attej]

Just a question I've been thinking about;

I was watching "Woodsmaster - Survival Basics" -video the other day (excellent video by the way), and the "Woodsmaster" was suggesting to keep some steel wool handy. He also showed a few tricks on how to ignite it. Now I agree that there are plenty of ways to ignite the steel wool (flashlight, sparks etc) but then again... what if that film box was simply filled with matches? Or a couple of bic lighters? You could start a couple of thousands fires with the lighters without needing anything extra.

Why do people tend to carry tinder, such as cotton balls (with or without vaseline), steel wool, etc? I mean, if you carry a waterproof firestarting kit, I think there are easier and more effective ways to create fire than a flint and steel wool. And if one already carries a lighter, then instead of cotton balls, one might carry an extra lighter? Sure, its cool to build a fire using a firesteel or a similar modern cave-man thing, but a film box full of steel wool is really not an effective nor space saving option.

I've used a magnesium fire thingy a couple of times to make a fire just for fun, and that seems to work nicely. It also has the benefit of being virtually indestructible. I can also attach the magnesium bar to my knife sheath, just in case. (keeping this in mind, a box full of steel wool does not sound like a handy item). However, in an emergency, like after falling through ice during winter time, I really wouldn't want to start making a fire with a magnesium bar. So even though it's attached to my knife sheath, I do keep a couple of water proof lighters with me. Using an alternative way to build a fire in a serious situation would require some really strange circumstanses.

Please don't get me wrong; if you like carrying cotton balls etc with you kit, by all means do. Just don't forget to pack an extra lighter also

 

[ilbruche]

Simplicity.

A lighter has moving parts and relies on it's fuel to produce flame. With a firesteel you have the initial spark to help start a fire. Carrying some sort of tinder makes starting fires easier.

Have you ever tried to start a fire with wet wood using only a lighter? Having something that will burn long and hot is a great help in a situation where your fuel is less than ideal.

 

[Ravaillac]

Actually, ignition means like lighter/matches don't replace tinders (like cotton balls, paper etc) and vis-versa: those are complementary.

Most ignition means are self igniting and will give you your initial flame. Anyone having tried bow drill or any other primitive fire lighting method knows that at this point you've already cut the most difficult part.

Now most of those (lighters, matches) will generally give you only a limited flame, this flame is often not enough to easily light locally available fuel (e.g. wood), so you light tinder (cotton ball).
The good thing about tinder is adding more allow you to make a bigger flame capable of lighting "heavier" stuff.

Allegedly you could use "more matches" as tinder, but that's generally wasting a precious ressource and not always better considering the way matches burn.

Now regarding the opposition lighter or matches vs "fancy stuff" like firesteel, magnesium bar... Most people consider that lighter and matches are far more practical and enough for 95% situations, while firesteel supporters praise it's superior durability and ease of use with limited thin motor skills despite the fact that they require a lot more know-how.

 

[attej]

Simplicity.

A lighter has moving parts and relies on it's fuel to produce flame. With a firesteel you have the initial spark to help start a fire. Carrying some sort of tinder makes starting fires easier.

Have you ever tried to start a fire with wet wood using only a lighter? Having something that will burn long and hot is a great help in a situation where your fuel is less than ideal.

Yeah, I kinda agree... Sure, a lighter is more likely to malfuncion than a pack of steel wool, but on the other hand, steel wool will give you just a few attempts to light a fire. However, is a pack of steel wool and a firesteel really more simple than a lighter? It does take a lot of space compared to a few waterproof lighters, and is a lot harder to use. Instead of having a film can full of steel wool, wouldn't it be more convenient to have a film can full of small bic lighters?

I have started a fire during heavy rain, and I suspect I wouldn't be able to do so with steel wool or cotton balls. Sure some tinder will help a lot, but I'd still rather have a lighter than a firesteel and some cotton balls etc. Igniting really wet wood is almost impossible, so you propably end up splitting the firewood for their dryer insides anyway. Oh well, here in Finland there are spruces everywhere, so finding tinder is never really a problem.

Again, please don't get me wrong. It's definately a smart thing to have several backup systems to light a fire. I just find it a bit unconvenient to actually go through the trouble of building a waterproof back-up pack to build a fire, when it only provides you with a difficult and uncertain way to ignite something. Also (and this is in no way pointed to anyone specifically) I feel that some people simply WANT to use a firesteel, but are unable to start a fire without some specially prepared tinder. In that case, a firesteel will only give a false sense of security, and will be of no assistance if you actually have to build a fire in extreme conditions.

 

[pict]

In my experience there is tinder you carry to make life easier and there is tinder you carry to make life remain, as in to save your life. In cold climates I carry a few emergency trioxene tablets, very effective in making a life saving fire right now as I'm going hypothermic. Here in rainy season I carry two large citronella candles, they burn long enough to cook the water out of kindling. Mac

 

[invicta]

I have to comment this also. I too live in Finland, an have been hiking in the Lapland area for years. I'm with Attej in this - I have never carried kindling of any kind in my treks and hikes, but I have always had fire when I wanted it.
I just make sure I have two good lighters in waterproof ziplock bags.
The main point is, if you have wood to burn, you have kindling - just use your knife. Brich bark is a very good kindling, as is any small chips of wood and stick. There's always dry wood inside bigger stumps and fallen branches to use as kindling. Just use the knife!

 

[invicta]

Ok, pict has a point - if you are alone and have just had an involuntary swim, a quick backup for warming up is necessary.
I always hike with at least one companion (at least have so far), so in a critical situation there's someone to make the fire for me.

 

[attej]

Ravaillac, I agree on the tinder part. I usually gather some tinder along the way, when Im hiking. The best stuff, IMHO, is from an old pine tree stump... I dunno what that stuff is in English, but anyway, usually there's a part in those stumps that smells like tar (and was actually used to make tar back in the old days). That stuff lights up even when wet, and burns really hot.

Now regarding the opposition lighter or matches vs "fancy stuff" like firesteel, magnesium bar... Most people consider that lighter and matches are far more practical and enough for 95% situations, while firesteel supporters praise it's superior durability and ease of use with limited thin motor skills despite the fact that they require a lot more know-how.

95%... or maybe even more? I've never had to use a firesteel, even though I have done so just for kicks. A lighter and matches I have used thousands of times. About the ease of use I can't agree. For example near hypothermia I really would prefer to to light a fire with a lighter rather than a fire steel.

Now I don't know a lot about this issue, I've never had to use anything but matches, lighter and natural tinder to build a fire. It's just that while watching the Woodsmaster, I thought it was a bit funny for someone to actually have steel wool as an backup system for fire. But, I'd really like to hear more opinions; if I'm totally off the track, I'd like to know about it. Who knows, maybe I'll end up adding some of that stuff to my kit

 

[attej]

In my experience there is tinder you carry to make life easier and there is tinder you carry to make life remain, as in to save your life. In cold climates I carry a few emergency trioxene tablets, very effective in making a life saving fire right now as I'm going hypothermic. Here in rainy season I carry two large citronella candles, they burn long enough to cook the water out of kindling. Mac

I agree on this totally.

Just to clear things; I'm not suggesting that keeping tinder handy is not smart. I'm just pointing out, that relying on a combination of firesteel and specially prepared tinder such as steel wool as a sole back up system for fire, is not IMO convenient.

 

[pict]

I have more to say on this but I'm leaving for the day so i'll pop back in later. Mac

 

[runningboar]

I know about steel wool and have experimented with it a bit but I would not suggest to carry it as tinder. I don't think much of matches either, they go stale over time and if they get damp or wet they are ruined. Now down to ferrocerium rods, magnesium bars, and lighters, fire is IMO so necessary that I believe in carrying both and being very well trained in using both. Bic lighters are very cheap, very dependable and just plain work, however they are mechanical devices that can break or run out of fluid and after a dunking take some time to dry out before they will work again. Ferrocerium is non mechanical and will work when wet but takes more skill to use.

The thing I like most about mag bars and flint sticks is they are a fire and forget method, in other words, I can throw a magbar with a couple of firestraws taped to it in my bag and absolutely not worry about it forever, when I need it, it will work the same as the day I put it in my pack, I don't have that amount of confidence in lighters. I think that ferrocerium, mag bars and lighters are back ups for each other and if you always use flint to start a fire you sure as hell won't have a problem when the chips are down using your lighter.

I also carry trioxane tabs and vaseline cottonballs, this is not because I can't use natural tinder or don't know how to find it, 95% of all my fires are started with natural tinders. It is for when myself, or someone else, NEEDS a fire now and I don't have time to waste, it is critical to be able to haphazardly pull together twigs and sticks and slide a trioxane tab underneath, flic my bic and have a fire. If I could find road flares small enough I would carry one of those as well. Chris

 

[runningboar]

Using an alternative way to build a fire in a serious situation would require some really strange circumstanses.

Not at all, I have been in several situations where I needed a fire now and did not have the time to find tender, dry sticks, and go through all the things I usually go through to build a fire, to me this is building a fire with an alternative method.

One instance a friend broke through ice on a 4 wheeler and then tried to recover it himself. By the time I got there he was so cold he was slipping in and out of consciousness, I built a fire using a rag I stuffed into the tank of the ATV to get gas on it and my lighter to build a fire, a huge fire out of drift wood I might add, this was an alternative method. I can't say I saved his life but to this day he does. Chris

 

[Ravaillac]

For example near hypothermia I really would prefer to to light a fire with a lighter rather than a fire steel.

Well, depends, while lighter is more practical, if your fingers are very cold frozen, it might be complicated to operate. There are those story about people found frozen dead in a cabin with a fire ready to go and a pile of broken matches...
In one documentary an artic explorer (I think) explained how he survived hypothermia and how he had to hold and light his match with his teeth because he couldn't perform the operation with his hands. (while firesteel only require)

Now I don't know a lot about this issue, I've never had to use anything but matches, lighter and natural tinder to build a fire.

Yes me too, actually when I was in the Boy Scouts using prepared tinders or candles to start a fire was considered as cheating. That said when you need quickly fire in an emergency, or when weather has been really bad, it may be useful to have at hand an artifical tinder that doesn't weight much, will be ready to go (no need to harvest) and will out perform most natural tinders available.

It's just that while watching the Woodsmaster, I thought it was a bit funny for someone to actually have steel wool as an backup system for fire.

Yeah, that's kind of odd, I mean it's nice to know that if you get lost and find, say, a cabin, you may use the steel wool from the sink to start a fire. But if you are in the planning process, I would probably select some more convenient tinder such as vaseline soaked cotton balls.

And I generally use a lighter by the way.

 

[attej]

One instance a friend broke through ice on a 4 wheeler and then tried to recover it himself. By the time I got there he was so cold he was slipping in and out of consciousness, I built a fire using a rag I stuffed into the tank of the ATV to get gas on it and my lighter to build a fire, a huge fire out of drift wood I might add, this was an alternative method. I can't say I saved his life but to this day he does. Chris

Nicely done :thumbup:

However, that story sort of emphasizes my point. What good a film can full of steel wool would have done in that situation? You did, after all, use a lighter.

 

[runningboar]

Nicely done :thumbup:

However, that story sort of emphasizes my point. What good a film can full of steel wool would have done in that situation? You did, after all, use a lighter.

Did you read my first post? Chris

EDIT: Take my story, I am not a smoker and only carry a lighter for emergency use, I have no tinder, vaseline cotton, trioxane or the like, and I am not carrying a ferrocerium rod or magblock with flint. My buddy fell through the ice, I get the fire together pull out my trusty lighter to find the fluid has leaked out, what now?

A ferrocerium rod and two firestraws probably weigh less than a ball point pen and is as small and bulletproof firemaking kit as I can think of, virtually waterproof and indestructable. Why in the world would you not carry it? Chris

 

[attej]

Well, depends, while lighter is more practical, if your fingers are very cold frozen, it might be complicated to operate. There are those story about people found frozen dead in a cabin with a fire ready to go and a pile of broken matches...
In one documentary an artic explorer (I think) explained how he survived hypothermia and how he had to hold and light his match with his teeth because he couldn't perform the operation with his hands. (while firesteel only require)

I have swimmed during winter time, and have experienced the early stages of hypothermia. I agree, that when the shivering takes hold, matches or a lighter would be extremely difficult to use. However, I don't really see how a firesteel would be more usefull. It's really not that easy to use. For steel wool, you would need to prepare some dry tinder before ignition, and as for cotton balls... you would have to dig them from your kit, then open up the straw, and after that, manage to produce enough sparks accurately enough to light them up.

Perhaps an emergency flare or something similar might be a good idea for such use? I myself carry only some dry clothes in a vacuum bag for such emergencies (and of course a couple of lighters etc.)

 

[runningboar]

Perhaps an emergency flare or something similar might be a good idea for such use? I myself carry only some dry clothes in a vacuum bag for such emergencies (and of course a couple of lighters etc.)

Do you carry dry clothes for everyone else? If you or someone else is seriously hypothermic dry clothes aren't going to do anything, you need a heat source and warm liquids if possible.

It seems as though you have already made up your mind about every other firemaking device besides a lighter and that is fine, I hope you continue to get good service from your choice.

IMO flint and mag bars are just like my plug kit and compressor I carry in my jeep, sure most of the time I just put my spare on..... but what if ?????? Chris

 

[attej]

Did you read my first post? Chris

Yes. In my first post, I tried to refer the use of specially prepared tinder such as steel wool etc, as "an alternative way of making fire". This in mind, I thought that your story was an example of igniting a fire easily with a lighter, rather than an example of an alternative method...

Did you read my first post? Chris

EDIT: Take my story, I am not a smoker and only carry a lighter for emergency use, I have no tinder, vaseline cotton, trioxane or the like, and I am not carrying a ferrocerium rod or magblock with flint. My buddy fell through the ice, I get the fire together pull out my trusty lighter to find the fluid has leaked out, what now?

A ferrocerium rod and two firestraws probably weigh less than a ball point pen and is as small and bulletproof firemaking kit as I can think of, virtually waterproof and indestructable. Why in the world would you not carry it? Chris

Ok, thats a valid point. I just think that a good and easy-to-use backup method is another waterproof quality lighter. It's smaller than a film can, more easy to use, and if I screw up the first attempt to make a fire, I can try again.

As for leaking out, I've never had such problem. That happening twice in one day would be quite strange.

 

[runningboar]

Ok, thats a valid point. I just think that a good and easy-to-use backup method is another waterproof quality lighter. It's smaller than a film can, more easy to use, and if I screw up the first attempt to make a fire, I can try again.

As for leaking out, I've never had such problem. That happening twice in one day would be quite strange.

My last post on this subject.

I never mentioned anything about a film can.

You trust lighters with with your life, I trust the skill I have gained from using a ferrocerium rod to use lighters or flint.

I like to have premade tinder for emergencies, you trust your skill, or luck, at finding dry, quick lighting and long burning natural tinder.

It seems that we each have our own methods to the same end and at this point must agree to disagree. Chris

 

[langston302]

just because it is strange does not mean it cannot happen....i have always carried a bic lighter....small light and reliable in most conditions....but yes there is a but....i was hiking out at a local lake and i slipped on a mossy rock and fell right onto my hip...bruised the hell out of it...i was hurting...i felt like i had been kicked by a mule... well i got up dusted myself off and limped gingerly away to camp...when i got there i decided i was dome moving for the day and needed to get the fire going for coffee and dinner......i go into my pocket for my lighter and remove.....You guessed it...a cracked mini bic...no fuel...and this was before i was smart and carried back ups....so after a few minutes of carefully removing the front of the silver gaurd with my leatherman file...i shaved some lint off my jeans, made a few fuzz sticks and turned my lighter into a spark lite....yeah it sucked, but it worked...it took forever......had i been in a super emergency situation....it might have turned out worse than it did....

now...Bic, Firesteel, firestraws, pj balls, jute twine, REI Storm matches, and some really cool firestarter i got from Home Depot...flat and sqaure jobs ....think 4 with all that other stuff in altoids tin...