Questions re: hickory for handles

FortyTwoBlades said:
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Felt identical under the rasp and produced shavings indistinguishable from one another other than by color. I'd also note that I have worked plenty of lightweight white hickory that felt brittle and "dusty" over the years, as compared to good dense growth that produces the plastic-like shavings. Just something to consider.
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Does that stick have rays in the end grain?
 
garry3 said:
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I'm not sure what you're getting at. There's no rays in the wood. It's an offcut from a rough-sawn air dried hickory 2x4 board. Whatever you think you're seeing in that image aren't rays, it's just the surface finish. :)
 
Old Axeman said:
It also bothers me this internet attitude with Johnny come lately comments like "that's just folklore or an old wives tale" Believe it or not, history, and how things used to be done in the past matters. I want to say-how the hell would you know what works, get your fingers off the key board !
The only thing I really think the internet is good for is finding great old axes to buy.

Bernie
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Knowing how things used to be done is certainly of value. But most people historically were not expert tool users. Truly proficient individuals have always been a small subset of the general population, and are generally the ones who pushed the art of their tool of choice to its greatest height and improved development. However, there are mountains of lore, most of which comes from misunderstanding by general users or even in some cases from experts who were doing the best they could in their day based on their lived experience to discern the best practices for that tool, but failed to correctly identify the root cause for a dynamic they could intuit but not properly measure. In reconstructing the proper usage of American scythes I've had to dig through tons of myths and old wives tales, many of which persist to this day. It's good to know they existed, and in many cases you can tell why they may have been led to believe that things operated in that manner, but just because many believed a thing to be true doesn't make it true. We do genuinely know better now about a lot of things.

As one of many examples, the American edged tool industry continued to import steel from England for a VERY long time due to market misperception of domestically produced steel as being inferior in quality, which was true in the early colonial period, but not long after, improvements were made and quite a lot of excellent quality steel was being produced here. Market prejudice, however, led manufacturers to continue importing steel so that they could tout it in their advertising. It didn't matter that it wasn't actually markedly better at that point--the market merely demanded it because they had always heard that the English steel was superior. Similarly, European scythe producers these days make "left handed" scythes not because they are actually necessary or useful (since the tool requires both sides of the body to be used in roughly equal measure) but because beginners expect that an asymmetrical tool like the scythe requires "left handed" versions to exist, when it actually doesn't. Companies will produce what sells, often when it is not based in accurate information.

Does that mean we should ignore historical methods? Of course not! But we should examine all practices with a critical eye to establish their degree of merit, and a good portion of historical lore comes up wanting.
 
When I was in the Army (over 40 years ago), I learned very quickly to spot the good vs bad NCO's, and who I could learn from.

The good ones never sat down, always on the move with good advice, taking care of their soldiers. Usually with tough love. :D You asked them an honest question, they would answer it or demonstrate the answer. Back and forth was always encouraged. They were willing to listen.

The bad ones would sit and drink coffee, telling war stories and pretending they were Rambo. Any honest questioning would get their backs up, and they would demand respect due to their "authority".

Guess who was respected and who wasn't?

There are members on this forum whose reputation and knowledge I greatly respect. When they make a claim, I usually read it 2 or 3 times. But I reserve the right to disagree. And I NEVER take what they say as the "gospel" simply because of who they are.

I've had numerous disagreements and opposite results testing knives on this forum. I sent one forumite, who is a metallurgist, some steel to make a knife out of. He and I got very different results when testing. I don't consider he or I wrong, my only regret is not being able to compare them together in person. Then we'd learn something together.
 
Old Axeman said:
42,
The fact that you did not comment on the "Government Grading for Hickory Handles" study says volumes.
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I tried looking it up but couldn't find it. Have a direct link? Searching for that title on Google turns up nothing. I cannot discuss something I haven't been able to read. :)
 
garry3 said:
I don't want to put anyone on the spot, but I know there are some here that will have an opinion on this and if they would be willing to share their knowledge it might help some here that are lurking and willing to listen.

With disregard to grain orientation here is some hickory that I think is a good representation of what one might find hanging on a store rack.

What are your thoughts?

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Most important id no run out. Then I look for hafts that show 12-15 growth rings per inch though anything in the 5-20 range is fine. For axes I prefer vertical grain. For pulaskis I'll look for 45* grain. Vertical grain breaks too easily below the narrow eye of a pulaski, 5/8" vs. 3/4" for double bits.
 
Old Axeman said:
Asking me about anything on the internet is a waste of your and my time. But, I do have a hard copy that I made from something at the Forest Service. All those years ago. I wrote at the top of the page- STANDARDS AND SPECIFICATIONS IN THE WOOD-USING INDUSTRIES. The page is titled- GOVERNMENT GRADING FOR HICKORY HANDLES. What I can do is to send you a hard copy of the page.
Bernie
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Is it this fellow? Seems like a very big document mostly not having to do with handles specifically so much as recording what the wood industry sectors are using as their methods and standards, and the PDF is so huge it makes Chrome struggle trying to read it direct from source, so I'm downloading the ZIP and seeing if I can find the relevant section.
 
For anyone curious I was able to find Federal specification NN-H-93C regarding hickory striking tools here. As of January 28th, 1999, it was cancelled as a specification without replacement. However it specifically references the study regarding red vs. white hickory.
 
If you're able to find your draft of it, please post it up!
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
Is it this fellow? Seems like a very big document mostly not having to do with handles specifically so much as recording what the wood industry sectors are using as their methods and standards, and the PDF is so huge it makes Chrome struggle trying to read it direct from source, so I'm downloading the ZIP and seeing if I can find the relevant section.
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That's an old version from 1927.
 
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