Quick question

Skeletor

Skeletor

Joined
Aug 31, 2002
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Where can I get some linseed oil? I don't have any wood handled khuks but I did get a 1953 M1 Garand (sn #4,638,545;) ) yesterday and my retired Marine neighbor recommended some linseed oil. Should I use boiled linseed oil and where is the best place to get some?
 
Skeletor-- you should be able to get linseed oil at a hardware store. They would probably have it at Wal Mart as well. I would recommend using a product called Tru-oil instead of the linseed oil though. I think it is a tung oil-based product intended primarily for gunstocks. It works great on khukuri handles. You should be able to find it at Wal Mart or at a gun store. It produces beautiful results.
--Josh
 
Boiled linseed oil at any home improvement or paint store.

I mix mine with half and half, boiled linseed oil and paint thinner, cuts it down so its not so sticky and absorbs better. The woodchucks will be around sooner or later.

I don't paint it on, just moisten cloth with it and rub in. It make take a few times to get the finish you want. I maintain most of my wooden handle khukuris , this way. I have tried a few with tru-oil, but got lazy and time limited.
 
If you want it to dry in your lifetime, yes use boiled linseed oil. Id thin it out with maybe 50% pure gum turpentine. Helps it penetrate into the wood. Anyways, it should be available in any hardware store, Walmart, or if you want real expensive stuff Art supply (used as an additive for paint). I like mixing linseed oil for nurishment, tung oil for durability, and turp for penetration. But, since this is a gun, the old fashioned way was just plain linseed oil (think I read that somewhere online).
 
I'm getting my M1 this summer from the CMP. How about a field report on yours?
 
Originally posted by Skeletor
yesterday and my retired Marine neighbor recommended some linseed oil.

Should I use boiled linseed oil and where is the best place to get some?
Click to expand...

The Marine steered you correctly. Boiled Linseed Oil has been used by the military for a mighty long time.
Almost any home store will have what you're looking for.
This is one instance where I would not recommend the Tru-Oil.:)
 
I like mixing linseed oil for nurishment, tung oil for durability, and turp for penetration.

Fed, good formula seems to me. I'll have to try that.
 
Doh in the time it took me to write my post two others have written, must be getting slow.:D One note of caution, with modern boiled linseed oil, there are petroleum additives that can effect certain finishes. It works on the old gun, as the way they used to finish them was to dip in linseed oil, and the reason why your friend suggested linseed oil, is that the army used to make the men keep oiling thier guns (the whole keep em busy routine). But for other things, be careful. Especially with french polishes, boiled linseed oil can do more damage than good. Anyways, the blend I do, is more for re-finishing, like Tru-oil is. Once the piece is good, and sealed with wax, any good furniture cleaner, like old english, should be ok.
 
Oops, sorry, Skeletor, I totally spaced that you were talking about a gun; I'm retarded:rolleyes: . Yvsa, why wouldn't you recommend Tru-oil for a gunstock? Isn't that what it is intended for? I've never used it on anything but khukuri handles, so I'm a bit curious.
--Josh
 
Doh, Im getting really slow, or everyone is getting really fast. Again I missed all sortsa posts.

LCS37 the blend has worked well for me, especially for restoring old pieces, that suffer from dry rot. However, it takes some playing with to get the perfect blends. So Ive been making it in small batches, trying to perfect it, though I suppose Ill never get it perfect every time if I keep eye-balling it. Anyways, I find that more tung oil and turp, than linseed oil has given me the best results. Too much linseed oil, and it goes gummy. Not enough, and then its benefits arent there. Been meaning to try that tru oil stuff, but been so happy with my blend, havent had the desire. Especially since Ive seen this blend help cracks in 100 year old wood seal themselves.
 
Josh the reason I wouldn't recommend it in this case is because it's an old military rifle and it's almost certain that the linseed is what's been used on it from the beginning.
On new stuff the Tru-Oil is great!!!!:)
 
Vicks, my Garand is from CMP also but I got it for $100 instead of $500:p . This gun belonged to my friend's mother two days ago and he was given permission to sell it as they were moving. I said it was worth $500 and offered $400, but being the friend he is he gave it to me for $100. This particular Garand is quite new and has seen very little use, there are almost no nicks, chips or dents. There isn't a single spec of rust on the entire weapon. This Garand was made buy International Harvester which is no longer available from CMP. What's cool about the whole thing is that this gun was the first gun I ever touched, now it's the first gun that I've ever owned, and will soon be the first gun I ever fire.
 
Fed and others, lessee if I've got this straight...

Linseed oil won't dry unless it has been boiled. (partially polymerized).

So one should never use linseed oil that hasn't been boiled, right?

Turpentine or mineral spirits work to thin it out.
Any preference?

Now the confusing part...Tung oil permutations.

Actually I've been using a Minwax formulated product, which has gotten a bit old and thicker, but with increasing dilution with turpentine seems to work OK. I mix a bit up in a little jar, and use that until it gets cloudy and sets up, then mix a new jar.

I'm interested in your misture Fed--what kind of tung oil do you make it with?

But I've heard conflicting things regarding the pure tung oil. Which of the below is true?

*Guy at Rocklers store told me the pure gloss tung oil would never dry unless formulated.

*I've read that the pure "gloss" oil has been boiled or partially polymerized, but the nongloss stuff hasn't.

*I've read that simply diluting unspecified pure tung oil with mineral spirits will produce a mixture that will dry. Presumably turpentine works for this as well, if true.

Confused about tung oil....It seems that the commercial formulations also usually contain small ammounts of some proprietary heavy metal additives that help promote the polymerization, which is a free-radical process that proceeds in the presence of oxygen.
 
Firkin, Ill try and answer your questions, but the science of it I dont have a handle of.

Pure linseed oil, the type that hasnt been boiled (polymerized), does dry. But it takes a very very long time, and if you put too much on, possibly never fully. I saw a list that had dry time times for various oils a while back, and if I remember correctly for boiled is around 2 days, and for non-boiled they listed about 1 week. I find if you thin it out, it dries faster. But it never dries fully hard, like tung oil, but is always kinda soft.

I use turpentine as thinner. Pure gum turpentine is a natural product, and comes from trees. Always thought, natural is better. Anyways, someone told me a while back to use it, instead of mineral spirits, said the spirits can mar finishes and sometimes damage wood. That was enough to scare me, so Ive never tried mineral spirits, but have been very happy with the results Ive gotten from turp.

Ok now onto tung oil, and here I am as fuzzy as you. But I seem to have read the same stuff you have, so at least if youre mistaken, youre not alone.

Anyways, the only tung oil I could get at the store, that wasnt a blend was the Minwax Tung Oil as well. The can and website say its tung oil, but what additives theyve added, I dont know. But since it dries shiny, Ive always assumed it was just polymerized. Anyways it is what I use in my blend. Ive seen in speciality woodworkers catalogs, what they tout to be real pure tung oil, but a certain part of me wonders if its just market hype. Anyways, I just have so much tung oil already (Im a pack rat, so when I buy oil I buy oil), I havent needed to buy anymore. So I dont know if there is much of a difference. Anyways, before the Minwax, I grew up using various Formby's tung oil blends. I like the Minwax better.
 
Thanks Fed.

The stuff I have is called "Minwax Tung Oil Finish" and it says on the can that it does contain petroleum spirits. It's the only tung oil product that I can find on their website. I definately prefer it to a product made by Gillespie which I bought at Rockler that I used before.

A standard maketing gimmick is the phrase "made with pure XXXX", which means, of course that, XXXX
has either been adulterated or combined with something else, which may or may not be a good thing. The other stuff I saw at the Rockler store said it was pure tung oil, glossy. They didn't have pure tung oil as matte, but they did in the formulated products. If I knew for sure that the pure glossy stuff was partially polymerized, I'd try it.

Dunno if distillate of pine pitch is any more "natural" than distillate of petroleum [;)] but I prefer it too, as it seems closer to what's found in wood since petroleum has had a LONG time to turn into something less like plants. And I kinda like the smell of turp.

Fully polmerized tung oil, as I understand it, is what the final result on a fully "dried" handle is. Ideally all the oil that has soaked into the wood has linked together, forming essentially one molecule that is highly crosslinked and hard and inflexible unlike a gum. Stuff deep in the wood may be not be fully polymerized, but it won't matter, like on the outside. I think one of the reasons for the very thin coats is to allow acess to oxygen for complete polymerization and hardening on the surface.

I do know that adding sicatives or drying agents to hardening oils used in oil painting can reduce the life of the painting, and promote cracking.

It seems that unless partial polymerization occurs first by "boiling", getting complete polymerization is very difficult. I guess how long to boil is the trick, and may distinguish between products, whether formulated or not.

Guess I'll poke around on the web again and see if I can become less confused.
 
Firkin, Im using the same stuff. All this time, I didnt realise there were mineral spirits in the stuff. Oh well. I have the feeling that like you said the pureness of the oil is more of a factor when using as a paint additive. Check out Violin varnish has some neat facts on linseed oil. I believe, the explanation could flip over to tung oil as well. While they use linseed oil as thier base, I know some luthiers who have used tung. If youre interested in making these varnishes yourself Quin Violins has a good variety of ingredients in its makers section. While they dont list tung oil, they have a variety of other oils listed as available bases. Though the requirements of violin varnishes are vastly different than other applications, as with instruments, a highly elastic varnish is desirable (not sure if thats exactly right as its been a while since I heard the explanation), in order to allow the wood to vibrate, as more penetrating varnishes can dull the sound.

Anyways, Ive never used mineral spirits as a mix (outside what is already in the oil Ive bought), but I like the smell of turp as well. Not as gut wrenching, as mineral spirits (used it to thin paint).
 
I haven't owned an M1 since 195?, but our club back then got them, and Springfields, through the DCM. The stocks had been dipped in hot linseed oil (gov't. contract low bidder, you KNOW it was boiled) and then the guns were liberally coated with cosmoline and stored for ?years. I don't believe mine had ever been issued. Not a mark on the wood and smooth as a babys' behind. I sanded it down, steel wooled it to a shine, and put about 30 coats of LinSpeed stock finish on it. This later became GB LinSpeed, and I believe Brownells still carrys it. Tru Oil is a later product and more available. The old gent who taught me the stock finishing technique called this rifle my "thesis" in his finishing college. Nothing spectacular, just good straight-grained walnut, but with patience they can be made to look better than the stuff the old drill teams used.
 
Well Fed, I found this-- HMMMMMM...


Just a comment about "Min-Wax" Tung Oil. Not that it really matters, but that product may not contain any Tung Oil at all. I believe the can reads "Tung Oil Finish". it is a blend of poly and oils such as Linseed. I researched this a year or so ago because of comments I read in a refinishing article that mentioned this product.

http://www.furniturewizard.com/wwwboard/messages/19151.html

This is interesting. I found that adding the orange oil I hav e (which contains petroleum spirits) to the minwax product causes cloudiness and what could almost be described as curdling.

But these folks recommend using citrus solvent to thin their pure unpolymerized tung oil if one wishes to avoid turp or petroleu m products.
http://www.realmilkpaint.com/oil.html

At first blush, this also makes me wonder about the minwax stuff. I suppose my orange oil could be less refined than the citrus solvent and contain some moisture, but it can't be much with the petroleum spirits that are in there or it wouldn't be homogenous.

Can't vouch for accuracy, but if anybody is REALLY interested in tung and linseed oil most of this at least makes sense as far as I can tell (IMO, he's not using some terms in an entirely correct manner, but it's kinda minor in the big picture) , and the author isn't trying to sell anything.

http://www.alan.net/prgfeat/tungoil.html

The question is how to know what you are buying!!
I guess if there isn't a statement that says 1 00% tung oil, no telling whether there is varnish linseed oil, or dryers in there too.

http://www.growinglifestyle.com/article/s0/a14571.html
Most of the tung oil products on the retail market today are not pure tung oil. They have tung oil as a major component but have other addit ives, primarily varnish. Pure tung oil is available from refinishing supply houses, but don't expect the product you buy across the retail counter to be pure. And please don't be fooled by the phrase "contain s pure tung oil". If this line is on the can, y ou can bet money it contains something else in addition to the 'pure' tung oil.

Actually the minwax can doesn't really say anywhere that it contains tung oil.

I guess I wouldn't use just any bo iled linseed oil on a cutting board or a bowl where the surface could get scraped off onto food. The expensive stuff used for artist's oil painting would be likely OK if no drying agents are added. But it will take a long time to dry.

Other places seem t o confirm that "boiled" linseed oil for wood finishin g often contains metal salts for drying agents as described.

http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/w00060.asp

Linseed oil is available in several forms. Unrefined, it's called r aw linseed oil, which is rarely use d on wood because it dries so slowly. Finishers long ago discovered that by boiling the oil, the resulting product was thicker and dried more quickly. Even though linseed oil that has actually been boiled is still avai la ble -- it's called heat-treated or polymerized oil -- most of the boiled linseed oil sold these days is raw oil that has been mixed with chemical additives to speed up the drying time. For wood finishing, you should use only boiled linseed oil.

Less ee, If I want boiled linseed oil, I shouldn't purchase boiled linseed oil, I should purchase heat-treated or polymerized oil right?:rolleyes:

Also other sites confirm that raw tung oil will dry to a matte finish, polymerized tung oil will dry to a gloss finish. The addition of drying agents or bo iling is apparently not required to get full drying for tung oil in a reasonable time.

Here's a comparison of several marketed finishes, description of ingredients and appearance of finish:
htt p://www.arbortech.com.au/articles/017.html

Of particular interest to those in this forum:

Birchwood-Casey Tru-Oil is a fast-drying blend of dicyclopentadiene-soya copolymer and modified linseed oil which produces a magnificent high-gloss lustre. This finish will not cloud or yellow with age and it is highly water resistant. This fin ish should be applied in very thin coats. Contains mineral spirits. Volatiles = 55 - 60%. Time to recoat ‹ 12 hours. Liquid colour, light amber brown.

And her e's an interesting wax recipe--Hmm, I wonder how it would work with carnuba added?
http://web.syr.edu/~rjthieme/oil.html

Mix 2 parts polymerized tung oil and 1 part pure tung oil in a small, shallow jar with a lid. Add shavings of beeswax. Warm the mixture in a double boiler just until the wax melts and then let it cool. Once cool, the mixture should have the consistency of shoe polish. You want enough wax so that it "sets up" into a solid, but is still very soft. Start with an amount of beeswax roughly equal to the amount of pure tung oil you used. Warm the mixture until the wax mel ts. Let it cool. Keep adding beeswax and repeating the heating/cooling process as necessary until you get a good consistency.

More recipes here:
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~pwguild/a-polish.htm

Lastly, here's a luthier's take on violin finishes.
http://adamsweet.com/brunkalla.htm

ABOUT FINISHES

The Search for a Truly “Tone Friendly” Finish

"Many contemporary violin m aker s will concede that a violin sounds best with no finish at all! However, asgood as a violin “in-the-white” may sound, it would rapidly succumb to the ravages of humidity, dirt, sweat,and whatever other hazards the player’s environment has to offer. S o the question is: how to protect the instrument while least affecting the tone.

After experimenting with various finis hes, including the traditional varnish finish, we have come to the conclusion that a quality hand-rubbed Tung Oil finish provides th e bes t protection with the least dampening of tone. Even 30 coats of hand-rubbed Tung Oil are less than .0003” (three ten-t housandths of an inch) thick, and won’t crack, craze, chip, or soften up from body oils or sweat.

For those who prefer a satiny “bare wood” look, as little as 5 coats are required to fully protect the instrument. For those who prefer a full shine we of fer the option of a full 30 coats of hand-rubbed Tung Oil.

The final treatment is at least one coat of pure Carnuba Wax, hand rubbed and polished. Customers are pleasantly surprised to find that the rosin practically falls off the instrument, making cleaning easy."

--November 2002, Martin Brunkalla, Luthier

30 coats of hand-rubbed tung oil--that should give the frog a buzz.¿;) :Ç
 
OK firkin, I believe these next two links should make you head throb less. They pretty well explain what the Minwax Tung oil Finish is, and the variant Tung oil controversies. However, Ill do a quick synopsis before the links. Anyways, my brain finally started working again.

Firstly, all this started sounding real familiar to me. And then it dawned on me. I saw that gosh durned furniture wizard link, and it spooked me as well a couple years back. Well, its wrong, and I had the feeling things werent adding up, and I knew that I had stopped worrying for a reason. Minwax's tung oil finish is a tung oil based finish. However, it is not 100% pure tung oil. It is an oil/varnish blend. Essentially, it is tung oil blended with varnish. And what is varnish, but tung oil and a resin that are blended using heat. However to dissolve the resin, a spirit is needed, and apparantly in Minwaxes case they use mineral spirits, though turpentine can be used instead. Anyways, the reason why adding more turp to the blend helps, so much is that it thus makes the finish a wiping varnish (term can be found in the articles). So, 100% tung oil is used to make home-made varnishes, but if you dont want to play with heat and resins, then you can just buy it pre-made in the can. Carvin guitars uses Minwax Tung Oil on its instruments, and recommends it. Anyways, it would seem all the hype for 100% pure tung oil is more marketeering than actual performance.

Anyways, the elasticity comment came from a book I have on violin making, I was a violinist for a long time, and my love for wood started from a desire to become a luthier (has fallen to the wayside, as the price of good cured violin woods is amazingly high). Figured I should re-read why they wanted elasticity in the varnish. Anyways, the reasoning was that the more elastic varnish would be able to be stretch when applied therebying allowing less varnish to cover the violin in being spread in thinner coats. As for whether or not tung oil is the best (and as we have discovered in our little journey is it really 100% pure tung oil she is commenting about or is it a blend), there is more to violin sound than the thinness of the finish. While it is a factor, other variabilities enter into the scenario, including penetration, durability, etc...

Anyways, here are the links.

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/features/finish2.html
http://www.woodfinishingsupplies.com/varnish.htm
 
Thanks Fed, those links were pretty informative, and fill in a couple of gaps.

I feel better about the couple of products that I've used now. A lot of this marketing stuff is out of control. Especially houshold cleaners that cost a fortune.

I like the Min-wax stuff, I guess that established brands aren't going to be real deceptive due to loss of reputation. I would like to try something like orange oil in a mix for the intial coats that soak in and it seems like the varnish falls out of solution when that's added.

Anyways, it would seem all the hype for 100% pure tung oil is more marketeering than actual performance.
Click to expand...

Given the time frame mentioned in one of the articles, there proably is a component of the "natural, organic" umbrella hype. Tung oil does appear to be pretty unique in that it polymerizes relatively fast without needing heat-treatment or driers.

But if someone wants to try mixing up their own concoctions it's sure easier if they know what the hell they are mixing up.

And calling raw linseed oil with sicatives added boiled linseed oil just pisses me off, even if I may not care about a bit of lead or cadmium salts in a particular application. I think that I might care on things used daily with food. Definately would if there were kids around.

Sometimes it's hard to tell where the perfomance improvement ends and the cost-cutting begins (got to cut costs to pay for the marketing).

You want a headache, I tried to figure out what "teak oil" is when that came up a while back...that probably primed me to be more suspicous and cynical than usual.;)
 
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