Rambo/Bowie knives etc are just macho BS!

I think gaining distance via blade length can be a vital issue, especially if you understand the application of the concept "distance".
I have at times (in high-risk situations/places) carried pepper spray, two mid-sized (6-7") fixed blades plus an 18" blade Marttiini Lapinleuku, one of my favourite blades for self-defense, in the city (whoa..
biggrin.gif
) I can comfortably carry it concealed in a rig originally built for screw-together billard queues. For me, it´s perfectly legal to carry even full size swords, but I cannot legally carry handguns or ASP batons.
If I had the choice, I´d go with a handgun, a small to medium knife and an ASP. I am training in a Filipino combat style and very much appreciate the escalation possibilities and stopping power of a stick, but a blade of the same size is simply another dimension, especially if you do not have the handgun as the ultimate option.
So for my situation a large to very large blade is the ultimate option for self-defense, and I like to keep as much options as possible when I think I might need them, although such a large blade sometimes means a lot of hassle and discomfort.
By the way, I remember from your previous posts that you believe in scaring the BGs with "nasty" blades. Guess how an 18" machete works in this context?

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"Peace is not without conflict; it is the ability to cope with conflict" - Leo Giron

[This message has been edited by judge (edited 07-12-2000).]
 
Chariot,

I agree that carrying a 7" blade fighter is not as comfortable as carrying a pocket knife, however, it can be done with ease if the right carrying system is employed and the knife is fairly thin in profile/width. I carried, and continue to occasionally carry one on a daily basis and the knife is less cumbersome than my pistol.

There is a huge difference in a 3" folder and 7" fighter. The difference is much more than simply blade length, we are talking 2 different types of knives all together. The fighter will likely at least have a sharp clip for back slash, a more positive handle and secure grip etc...

The difference between a 9" fighter and a 7" fighter is generally blade length alone, NOT an entirely different blade purpose.

As far as a 7" fighter being hard to draw etc.. its simply not the case with a GOOD carry system. I can present my fighter in about the same amount of time it takes to present and snap open a liner lock.

And as far as the weight issue, let me just say that a PROPERLY designed and made fixed blade fighter should feel like its "floating" or "lifting" in your hand. If you pick it up and it feels "dead" or wants to jump back on the makers table... than i wouldnt carry or use it for defense.

I realize that dispatching an animal and urban self defense are not the same, but it is the closest reference i have to using a knife in such a manner. To me, its much more a realistic indicator of the knifes ability, and more importantly, your ability to carry through than cutting on a card board dummy, potatoe sack etc.

I think we forget that in self defense, YOU may have to kill. If somone is attempting to assualt me or one of my family, im going to defend them. The most effective way to defend is to swiftly, precisely, and aggressively as you possibly can, inflict the most damage to the enemy. In this, you will likely kill.

I would much rather have a 7" fighter (the minimum adequate blade length IMO), than a 21" baton. Ive used a baton for its intended purpose while doing training, and once in the real world in the Coast Guard. Batons are what i call "passive" defense weapons. They only inflict minimal, soft damage and to me they are completely defunct for serios defense.

I think 7" is a good compromise size, it can be carried easy (with a good sheath or system), and they have enough length to get to the sweet spots. As far as what i "reckon" about a larger knife being better to dispatch a dog... I dont know, ive only done it 2 times, and i dont care to ever do it again. I guess it would all depend on how you had to do it etc... Im not going to discuss the "details" as i dont think they are completely relevant. I will say that both were fairly quick, and necassary.

I can tell you this however, on a boar hog its good to have AT LEAST 8 to 9", becuase you have to get through or under the cartilagous "plate" that covers his shoulders and chest. Ive only done this once, recently, but have watched it done several times... this is NEVER quick, and physically challenging to say the least.

Let me just say that a true fighter gives you many more options in defending yourself than a 3" folder. Wouldnt you rather have a 7" blade buried in your enemy than a 3" folder?? One method ive thought about in knife defense is burying in center mass, just below the rib cage, then crank like you would an old pump handle. I thought of this watching a serios hog hunter, they do it much the same way and it works. For this a 3" blade would not be effeciently effective, not like a true fighter any how.

Any how, it seems that we have completely different mind sets when it comes to self defense, but thats OK, and i dont want to argue.

Thanks,
Matt.



------------------
" The true way of the sword is the craft of defeating the enemy in a fight, and nothing other than this" Ibid

www.lameyknives.com
 
I'm sure that would work wonders :-)
I DO believe somewhat of the intimidation factor, but I just don't know how important it might be and wether I should let that be a factor selecting a knife for self-defense, I'm no expert on these questions I'm just trying to LEARN :-)

By the way, I remember from your previous posts that you believe in scaring the BGs with "nasty" blades. Guess how an 18" machete works in this context?

[/B][/QUOTE]

 
I think that it might be worthwhile to point out here that the reason that Bowie knives have been made illegal in Virginia, Maryland and many other Southern states, Arkansas included, was that they were such effective weapons in their heyday that there was a huge public hue and cry against them as the weapon that would "destroy civilization as we know it", rather like what we see against the "assault weapon" (sic) today. In the days of the single shot, muzzle-loading pistol, a skilled man with a Bowie knife was given a better than even chance against a pistol-armed opponent. The same generally held true for an opponent armed with a sword-cane or a tomahawk. So, from an historical viewpoint, do not underestimate the effectiveness of a large Bowie knife.

BTW, you might also look into James Keating's training videos in the use of the Bowie. He is one who makes a very good case for its continuing effectiveness today.

------------------
Walk in the Light,
Hugh Fuller
 
Originally posted by RMLamey:
Chariot,

I agree that carrying a 7" blade fighter is not as comfortable as carrying a pocket knife, however, it can be done with ease if the right carrying system is employed and the knife is fairly thin in profile/width. I carried, and continue to occasionally carry one on a daily basis and the knife is less cumbersome than my pistol.

** Can you name some knives that have such a carrying system? and if possible, put links to them? And I will go check it out.

There is a huge difference in a 3" folder and 7" fighter. The difference is much more than simply blade length, we are talking 2 different types of knives all together. The fighter will likely at least have a sharp clip for back slash, a more positive handle and secure grip etc...

** I'm sure. Then there's folded knives like the REKAT sifu. My thoughts is not wether I should go for a 3" or 7", I'm considering wearing a small knife for close combat/protection, and then something else to prevent the fight from going there.. I guess that's where the intimidation factor (if there is such! and it has value) and reach comes to play... and this is where I mention the ASP baton... IF there's 7" knives around that are fast, light, easy to carry and not much of a hassle... well then it's worth considering.

And as far as the weight issue, let me just say that a PROPERLY designed and made fixed blade fighter should feel like its "floating" or "lifting" in your hand. If you pick it up and it feels "dead" or wants to jump back on the makers table... than i wouldnt carry or use it for defense.

** Sounds good to me, you and other people reading this point me in the right direction and I will go check it out..

I think we forget that in self defense, YOU may have to kill. If somone is attempting to assualt me or one of my family, im going to defend them. The most effective way to defend is to swiftly, precisely, and aggressively as you possibly can, inflict the most damage to the enemy. In this, you will likely kill.

** Yes, but this is a difficult mental issue, WHEN to defend yourself with maximum deadly force... IF i can get away/protect myself and others without killing the attacker, well that's a good thing... with a ASP baton i feel this can be done, with a 7" it can be done also but then again you can end up killing someone... so this isn't an easy decision... there's so many scenarios that can happen...


I would much rather have a 7" fighter (the minimum adequate blade length IMO), than a 21" baton. Ive used a baton for its intended purpose while doing training, and once in the real world in the Coast Guard. Batons are what i call "passive" defense weapons. They only inflict minimal, soft damage and to me they are completely defunct for serios defense.

** i think a baton is capable of doing a lot more than soft damage.. i wouldn't want someone hitting me repeativly to the head with it... and if i have a knife in my hand, regardless if it's 3", 7" or 10" the guy with a 21" baton has a greater chance of disrming me than i have disarming him...


I think 7" is a good compromise size, it can be carried easy (with a good sheath or system), and they have enough length to get to the sweet spots. As far as what i "reckon" about a larger knife being better to dispatch a dog... I dont know, ive only done it 2 times, and i dont care to ever do it again. I guess it would all depend on how you had to do it etc... Im not going to discuss the "details" as i dont think they are completely relevant. I will say that both were fairly quick, and necassary.

** What i mean is, being attacked by a pitbull for instance happens quickly, if it gets your arm, you pull a short blade and stabs it, not sure a 7" would work in this situation.. on the other hand, you probably carry more than a 7" anyway


Let me just say that a true fighter gives you many more options in defending yourself than a 3" folder. Wouldnt you rather have a

** I agree. But also disadvantages, especially for daily carrying in a city environement. But if i see one of those light big knives mentioned with a good carrying system.. i might change my mind on this.

Any how, it seems that we have completely different mind sets when it comes to self defense, but thats OK, and i dont want to argue.

** I don't think they're all that different, I might come out a little strong and provocative, but I need to get the facts nailed down... if i read more, see pictures etc I might change my views all together and end up buying a 7" in the next week.. i just want to learn... as for the self-defense aspect, i find it's difficult to know WHEN to use deadly force.. there's many factors to consider... if i was 100% to know when to use a knife, and go for a kill, well the decision would be much easier.. let's say you get attacked in your home and you KNOW you would be in big trouble, then the decision is easier.. i can't see nobody picking up a 3" instead of a 7" there.. but then that's just ONE scenario of what might happen.. so many other things to consider..


[This message has been edited by Chariot (edited 07-12-2000).]
Click to expand...
 
Yup, I don't doubt a Bowie's effectiveness in battle... I just can't get around to wear one daily for self-defense in the city... IF they're light weight, easy to carry etc I might change my mind on that. Im gonna check J keating out. thanks.


Originally posted by FullerH:
I think that it might be worthwhile to point out here that the reason that Bowie knives have been made illegal in Virginia, Maryland and many other Southern states, Arkansas included, was that they were such effective weapons in their heyday that there was a huge public hue and cry against them as the weapon that would "destroy civilization as we know it", rather like what we see against the "assault weapon" (sic) today. In the days of the single shot, muzzle-loading pistol, a skilled man with a Bowie knife was given a better than even chance against a pistol-armed opponent. The same generally held true for an opponent armed with a sword-cane or a tomahawk. So, from an historical viewpoint, do not underestimate the effectiveness of a large Bowie knife.

BTW, you might also look into James Keating's training videos in the use of the Bowie. He is one who makes a very good case for its continuing effectiveness today.
Click to expand...

 
Chariot (and everyone else, for that matter), you may be interested in this Close Quarters Draw thread. It makes some interesting points regarding fixed, folding, small, and large blades, as well as blade shapes.

All that being said... if I could even hope to conceal 7+ inches of blade, I would. Along with the collapsible baton for the secondary side. Why not?

------------------
iktomi
 
I recommend going to a show and handling (fondling) some well made bowie/fighters. I picked one up made by Mr. Fisk (NLT)... As I lifted it, it was heavy. BUT once in the proper grip it came alive! It just wanted to move! The Randall mod. 1 felt the same to me.
Another thing, that I don't think anyone has mentioned is speed. The point of a 7" + blade is traveling around a larger arc and therefore has alot more (tip) speed. Keating compares it to using a flyswatter...you can't get your hand going fast enough, but with the use of the lever (long handle) you can accomplish it.
As for batons, I can see (in a all out fight) someone taking a hit (forearm block, etc.) from a baton to get position. I doubt one would do that when faced with a large blade.
Would I carry a bowie everyday? No, not here in NYC...under 4" is it. Beside my knives are tools, not weapons
wink.gif

My 2¢ just ran out...
Ebbtide out.
(edited for spelling, you know it's a bad day when you spell your name wrong
frown.gif
)

[This message has been edited by Ebbtide (edited 07-13-2000).]
 
I've never been in a knife fight or a gun fight and never want to be. However I do beleive in the intimidation factor. If I was staring at the muzzle of a .22 cal handgun I might be inclined to make a offencive move if given any opening. However replace that .22 with a 12 ga. barrel lookin at you, there is know way, I know how much damage that 12 bore will do at close range. I think the same applies with knives.
To the extreame the guy with the 4 inch folder has to be dam good or very stupid to take on anyone with a swoard no matter what there skill level.

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Robert
Flat Land Knife Works
rdblad@telusplanet.net
http://members.tripod.com/knifeworks/index.html
 
I'm going to slide in on the side of the Bowie. I was there when Scorpio had his eyes opened to the effectiveness of the Backcut with a properly made Bowie. Those of you that have been exposed to James Keating's teachings also know how effective the techniques are and how quickly they can be learned at a functional level. As far as ease of carry, concealment, and being able to deploy the knife in a hurry, try a "belt stud" type sheath - magic! I know several people in the 5'7-10" range who routinely carry at least 10 1/2" bladed Bowies in nothing more than a pair of shorts and a t-shirt. You'll never know they have 'em, and they ain't whackos either. The larger knives give you range. The speed and deceptions of the Backcut and other Bowie techniques give you distinct advantages that smaller knives just don't. The older I get, the more I want to "stack the deck". It's stupid to pull a knife just to intimidate someone, but if they're smart enough and quick enough, I'll let them leave. As Fuller said, there are reasons that they banned the Bowie in so many places. Check out Keating's tapes, or better yet, spend a few days with him and see what YOU can do with a Bowie. I think there is another Bowie-specific seminar in the end of October.

Mike
 
And after gaining enlightenment from Mr. Keatings videos, you'll want to go check out an Ontario Bagwell Bowie. I have the Fortress model and it is the biggest and fastest knife I have ever handled in it's size catagory.
I think you'll be pleased with it.
I know I am.
wink.gif



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The individualist without strategy who takes opponents lightly will inevitably become the captive of others.
Sun Tzu
 
Chariot, IM glad i didnt come on too harsh in my previos post as this is a topic i usually shy away from for many reasons.

As far as carry systems, I hear those of JSP/Bladerigger are very effective BUT the sheath that is my favorite is made by Kenny Rowe.

I had him make up some concealment sheaths for my fighters that ride inside the pants and have a single belt loop that swivels, allowing you to adjust the sheath position angle how you want it. It is also "rough out" leather so it adheres to your body and you have to make an effort to change its position. It is very simple, but very effective and most importantly concealable. My Sunrise fighter is generally narrow, no more than 1" at the "thickest" part of the handle palmswell. This makes for a nice thin concealable overall package.

We can just dis agree on the baton, i hatem.

As far as makers that i would recomend for a light, fast, extremely well made fighter (i tend to lean toward the bowie/fighter pattern).

1- Jerry Fisk, ive been a fan of his for a long time. His "Commanchero" is what i consider the supreme fighter. BUT he has a TRUE 5+ year wait, trust me on this one.

2- Joe Flournoy- His long clip classic fighter is awesome. VERY light, fast, beatifull workmanship and temper lines to drool over.

3- John Fitch- An up and comer that makes the lightest knives for there size ive ever handled. His "winged guard" fighter is light, long, fast sharp etc... I think he is the sleeper out there.

4- Jim Siska- Srike Force 7", this is a sweet knife and in CPM 3V. I handled the prototype at the blade show and can say that these are serios no nonsence fighters. Probably made with the most precision of any i know.

5- John M Smith- Inner City Bowie, meets all the criteria, light, fast, strong, sharp, well made etc.......

6- Pual Lebetard- He is a local maker, and the guy whos given me more hands on training than anyone. Excellent value, his lightweight fighter is the best buy out there. Great leather work as well.

7- Harvey Dean- Bourbon Street bowie, more of the classic bowie, a bit shorter clip than i typically would want, but very sharp, light, fast, and probably the classiest of the bunch.

8- Jim Crowell- Fighter/Bowie, exquisitely clean work, probably won more cutting competitions than anyone. Long wait.

9- David Broadwell- MLR Tac, i got to handle one of these at the blade show, and really liked it alot. A bit heavier than i like, but well balanced and well executed in general.

10- In my opinion, the best for last is Micheal Connor. Im not even gonna start talking about his bowies/fighters, as i dont have one and will begin to cry openly
biggrin.gif


There are many more (Jim Walker, Walter Brend, Roger Massey etc..)and there are some new guys out there coming up that are doing it right.

As far as a good sheath, shoulder harness or anything else you can sketch out, Kenny Rowe can build it to carry your favorite knife.

IF you need any contact information, email me. I think all these guys are in Knives 2000.

Matt.

------------------
" The true way of the sword is the craft of defeating the enemy in a fight, and nothing other than this" Ibid

www.lameyknives.com
 
Any list of custom Fighting Bowie makers is incomplete without Bill Bagwell, considered by many to be the King.

Mike
 
Do you have an URL for a site with a "belt stud" sheath? I've yet to find any sheats or carrying systems mentioned.

As for a knife being effective just because it's banned, I think that's a lame argument. I don't see the Balisong superior, or auto knives, yet they're banned in many places.

to deploy the knife in a hurry, try a "belt stud" type sheath - magic! I know several people in the 5'7-10" range who routinely carry at least 10 1/2" bladed Bowies in nothing more than a pair of shorts and a t-shirt. You'll never know they have 'em, and they ain't whackos either. The larger knives give you range. The speed and deceptions of the Backcut and other Bowie techniques give you distinct advantages that smaller knives just don't. The older I get, the more I want to "stack the deck". It's stupid to pull a knife just to intimidate someone, but if they're smart enough and quick enough, I'll let them leave. As Fuller said, there are reasons that they banned the Bowie in so many places. Check out Keating's tapes, or better yet, spend a few days with him and see what YOU can do with a Bowie. I think there is another Bowie-specific seminar in the end of October.

Mike[/B][/QUOTE]

 
Allright I'll check them all out (if I can find them) do one have to go custom though? Any others worth checking out? Thanks.
 
Chariot,I would definitely consider one of the Ontario/Bagwells. I have been thinking of getting one myself and seeing how they perform. BUT you can buy a custom for little more, and have more for your money.

Mike, The reason Bill Bagwell wasnt on my list is that i havent handled enough of his work to make an educated recomendation. I realize he played a key role in "re introducing" the fighting bowie to us today. I remember all those SOF articles from way back, still read them on occasion.

Chariot,I will do some looking around and see if there are any more factory knives that fit the bill but i sure cant think of any right now (except the Ontario/Bagwell).

On the belt stud, ive carried with one and they are OK, but not as good as a swivel loop. There is simply not enough "mechanical" security holding the sheath to you, try running through the woods with one and you will learn that if snagged, they will likely shift, and perhaps be in the mud in the worst case.

Matt

PS- Theres only one KING, and he aint no knife maker
biggrin.gif



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" The true way of the sword is the craft of defeating the enemy in a fight, and nothing other than this" Ibid

www.lameyknives.com



[This message has been edited by RMLamey (edited 07-14-2000).]
 
thanks. im trying to find the ontario/bagwell site now. but what we are discussing is a bowie type 7" knife isnt it? i thought they were very common knives available from a lot of companies?
 
Knife for work, fists for fight, gun for fight if fists don't work...

Sure I'd use a knife as a weapon, but only as a last resort. Now if you have big work to do, setting up camp, building shelter, gathering kindling, then you need a big knife.

Brandon

------------------
I've got the schizophrenic blues
No I don't
Yes I do...
 
Check out the Randall #1, also just check out what the major factories have for you. I have handles Cold Steel's copy of the Randall #1 and I liked it, for a factory knife. Yeah, perhaps the steel isn't what you want, etc., etc. All I am saying is do a rearch on knives in this range online and go to your local knife store and handle some too. If you are serious enough about wanting to conceal it and such, do buy a good knife and disregard the sheath is comes with. Get a sheath made up after that fits your specifications. There are a few guys online here that do wonders with kydex. You can go to the shop talk forum and ask who can do up an abc sheath for your model xyz knife.

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"Come What May..."
 
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