Random Damascus San mai with koa(WIP)

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Jul 23, 2015
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So I'm in the designing phase of a project knife that I need to be absolutely stunning. I am sparing no expense on materials and need some help with a crazy(stupid) idea I came up with and I am trying to figure out if it's even possible. The knife is going to be busy but I think I'll be able to pull it off.
The blade material will be random pattern Damascus San Mai I ordered from HHH. I am probably going to have to weld a tang extension onto it(1.5") or so. No big deal as I can tig no problem. The knife will be a hidden tang. I want to do Damascus or brass guard and pommel with a peened tang.
Here's the part that's ridiculous, I have a couple of beautiful blocks of koa and a couple rolls of elk. Inspired by all the amazing integrals I see I'm thinking of inlaying the elk into the koa but I'm not really sure where to start. Has anyone tried anything like this before? If you've done this, please give me some pointers and or words of wisdom. Here's a little sketch I just did and the blade profile isn't even close to what I want, but the handle is.
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Sounds like a cool project! Wish I could offer up any helpful stuff, but I'm clueless. Try contacting a custom rifle maker- muzzleloaders especially- if no one here has any ideas. They do intricate inlays all the time and may be able to give some good advice
 
The easiest thing to do would be rip the koa into three strips. The center strip being the thickness of the tang. Then you could cut out a slot for the tang in that piece. Next, take the two outside pieces of koa and basically cut the center out so you have bolster like pieces leftover. Then glue the center strip, the "bolsters" and the elk pieces all back together. When it's done you shouldn't be able to see much of a glue line on the koa, as long as its very flat when you put it back together.

Alternatively, you could take your block of Koa, make sure you drill it out perfectly down the center, then mill out the recesses for the antler on both sides of the block. If you don't have a milling machine, and are not careful fitting the elk in, the gap between the elk and the koa could look really bad.

I hope that makes sense

-Adam
 
The easiest thing to do would be rip the koa into three strips. The center strip being the thickness of the tang. Then you could cut out a slot for the tang in that piece. Next, take the two outside pieces of koa and basically cut the center out so you have bolster like pieces leftover. Then glue the center strip, the "bolsters" and the elk pieces all back together. When it's done you shouldn't be able to see much of a glue line on the koa, as long as its very flat when you put it back together.

Alternatively, you could take your block of Koa, make sure you drill it out perfectly down the center, then mill out the recesses for the antler on both sides of the block. If you don't have a milling machine, and are not careful fitting the elk in, the gap between the elk and the koa could look really bad.

I hope that makes sense

-Adam

Adam,
Thank you for taking the time to make suggestions, I do have a milling machine so that would make it much easier. I was thinking of either using the mill or making a platen with round bar welded on each end to fit the radii of the recesses in the scales. I have seen one maker use that before for doing integral knives, my main concern is with finishing. The joint between the elk and the koa. The koa is smooth and the antler is not so I'm not exactly sure if I wanna touch the antler with sandpaper to knock it down.
 
Take a look at antler handled folders with steel/brass bolsters. The antler in the scale is proud in the center showing the bark and texture of the natural antler but is sanded down towards the bolster so it is smooth "bone" as it transitions. This would give you more swell in the center than you have drawn.

I believe you're going to want a smooth transition between the Koa and the Antler. I'd go with Adam's second method, drill the koa, rough shape it for the handle ON THE TANG and then mill out the recesses for the antler. Shaping it on the tang will make up for any deviation in your center hole.
 
It is just a frame handle construction done with wood/antler instead of metal and wood/ivory.

The following instructions start as any three piece frame handle done in wood. This is an excellent method of making a tight fitting handle for a take down or an odd or curved shape tang assembly. Directions are specific to the OP koa/elk idea, but would work in any material or combination of materials.

Start with a 1.25"-1.5" thick block of koa just a little larger than the desired handle assembly. ( the extra thickness is to allow for the two saw cuts. Use a thickness that is sufficient to get the desired final handle bock) Sand the edges smooth. At this point I place random diagonal lines and "X" marks along the sides and ends that will match up only when properly assembled later on.
Cut it in lengthwise into three scales. The middle scale should be just a tab thicker than the tang. Sand it down to about .020" thicker than the tang. You now have two outer scales and an inner frame scale. Sand as needed with 120 grit paper to assure the mating surfaces are perfectly flat. Mark them 1,2,3, and designate front and back as well as inside and outside so they can be re-assembled with correct grain lines later on. The "X" marks made earlier will greatly help alignment. Re-assembled properly, the joints will be invisible on koa. I recommend using Tightbond II for dark wood.

Now - for the start of the wooden frame handle:
(In a regular handle assembly, you would just glue the two outer scales on the frame pieces. You can do that here and shape the inlay sections to fit the elk slabs if you have a mill or good woodworking skills. If you are new to all this, the method given later on may be better for you.)

Lay the tang on the frame scale and draw the outline. Cut the scale in two pieces along those lines. (Save the inner piece, as it can be used to clean out glue during assembly)
Now you are ready to attach the outer scales.
Start the sandwich by gluing one scale on the frame pieces. Make sure you have aligned the marks on the sides to match the grain. Clamp with firm clamping all along the seams. I like the 3" and 4" black clamps from HF that sell for less than a dollar each.
When dry, remove the clamps, and test fit the tang into the channel to check the fit. File/cut out any places that are too tight and remove any dried glue squeeze-out. The tang hopefully is a nice fit now.
Glue the other scale on aligning all lines to make the original block a good reassembly. Clamp well. Run the tang in and out. Wipe the glue off the tang after each insertion, and repeat until it comes out clean of glue. Set assembly aside to fully cure.
When cured, check the tang fit and file or scrape any glue squeeze-out or tight places to get a good fit.
At this point the frame handle is ready for inlay and shaping.


For a simpler inlay assembly this will work well:

Trace the tang on a piece of stiff paper. Brown bag or craft paper is good.
Place one of the outer scales over the drawing and draw the outline to show where the tang will sit inside the final handle block.
Spot glue the two frame pieces to the paper using a couple tiny drops of the wood glue ( they only need to stay in place for the next steps). Align them so they fit the outer scales marks, not the tang mark ( which should be close, but aren't as critical as the outside).
Trace another outline of the outer scale on a sheet of printer paper, and mark where the inlay of elk will go. The wood in front and behind that are the bolsters. Set this paper aside.

Now is when you will make the front and rear bolsters.
Glue the two scales together with a little glue only in the middle ( where the elk will be). Use two small drops of CA for this. The end parts that will become the front and rear bolsters should not have glue between them.
Cut the front and rear bolsters off the glued up scales. Set them aside on the paper with the layout drawn on it to keep the front and rear bolsters straight so the final grain will line up later on. (If the bolster pieces got accidentally glued together, they can easily be split apart with a sharp knife blade once cut off the scales.)
Take the top front block of bolster koa and glue it on the frame strips where the front bolster will be ( Remember the original 1-2-3 scales alignment and make sure the pieces are aligned with the grain marks). Use the Tightbond wood glue. Use medium tension clamps (I like the 3" and 4" ones from HF that sell for less tan a buck each). Let dry overnight.
Use a safe edge file and clean up the transition where the inlay piece will go. You want the joint at 90° for a simpler assembly. Rounding the joint will greatly increase the fitting difficulty of the inlay, but can be done if you wish ( If you decide to round the inlay, you were warned).
Cut both inlay slabs of elk and shape the ends. Again, 90° square ends will be far easier to do. Set one aside on your block drawing with the bolster pieces.
Place the elk slab on the frame. It should fit as closely as possible against the front bolster. Glue on with Tightbond, using light to medium tension clamps. Once fully cured, file the elk end to remove any glue squeeze out, and add the top rear bolster block with Tightbond glue.
Remove the paper backing and sand the frame lightly to remove any glue bumps.
Clean out the tang channel of any glue drips, and check the tang fit.
Glue on the second side front bolster/elk/rear bolster as previously done.

At this point you have a rather ugly assembly of koa and elk. Trim it up on the grinder to even out the sides and top. Now you have your rough inlay handle assembly. Check the tang fit and scrape/file/broach out any glue that is in the channel.

Shape as any single block of wood to make your final handle.
 
Just my .02 cents worth. Take it for what it's worth. When using Koa with great curl I'd just make sure your leaving enough Koa visible to get the effect that Koa is famous for. Cutting it down too much may not show off it's true beauty and may end up detracting from the knife. In my opinion the more curl you can show the better this wood is.

Love the design though.

Jay
 
Thank you to all that replied but, I canned the idea and decided to just use the elk. I firmly believe I don't currently have the skillset required to do this idea. This is only my second hidden tang knife ever, so I have enough to worry about. I tig welded a tang extension onto the billet, rough profiled the knife and started roughing in the bevels. I am waiting on my file guide from Bruce Bump to show up before I cut the plunge lines in.
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Yesterday I had the crazy idea to do my first forge weld ever, without a forge.
I have a low count damascus billet that i cut into four 1" wide strips.
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Tig welded all seams without filler.
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Heated it up with a rosebud.
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Then squished it all together using a hydraulic iron worker.
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The weld was a success and the billet will be the guard for this knife.
I squared it all up in my mill and sanded it smooth to 120 with my disc sander, then did a quick etch to see what I get.
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I started drilling the antler to fit the tang. Final fitting isn't done yet but its on the knife in this pic. I plan to broach the hole some more to get the pommel end to drop down some more so that it is a smoother flow. The guard isn't fit either and it is just setting on the knife.
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I plan to through bolt the tang and make a pommel out of the same damascus I used for the guard. The excess material I will be cutting off the guard I will more than likely turn down to be the "nut" on the end of the pommel.
 
Kevin, nice work so far
BTW the file guide is done and goes out tomorrow. :)

Thanks Bruce, I got your care package this afternoon and within 5 minutes of opening the box I was using it. Awesome tool!
I got the plunges more to where I want them and then flipped the guide around and started working on the joint between the guard and the ricasso. I then started filing the guard and really wish I was more confident in my milling skills because this guard filing is for the birds. I straightened the bevels out on my disc and did another quick etch to see where I am. I guess I'm off or the billet was a tad off center. It's probably me but I'll work it out.
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Looking good. I like the damascus pattern.

IMO in a hidden tang knife with a guard, the entire edge can be used as a cutting edge. If you moved the plunge back a little bit it would be a little bit better. Either way its looking awesome.
 
Looking good. I like the damascus pattern.

IMO in a hidden tang knife with a guard, the entire edge can be used as a cutting edge. If you moved the plunge back a little bit it would be a little bit better. Either way its looking awesome.

Thanks Shane, being my 2nd hidden tang ever, that's the kind of stuff I need to hear. I'm open to any suggestions.
 
Spent about 3.5 hours this afternoon working on the guard. Got it to within .015". I think that's as far as I'm going to go as the blade isn't heat treated yet. I haven't built up enough confidence to do the wiring on my oven yet and this blade being 1095 based, I'm going to send it out to tru-grit. I have about 6 cracked blades of 1095 that I'm just not willing to risk it on this expensive material. I threw it all together to get a rough idea. This elk is a fatty. I'm hoping I can trim it down enough to get it comfortable and keep texture in the palm swell. I am really wishing this piece had a culprppers Amber dye job.
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This afternoon I hear treated the blade, about to temper it as I write this. Then I ground it closer to the finished edge, still got all the final grinding to do. I started messing with the handle. This antler sat for 2 days in a pot filled with coffee and coffee grounds and didn't do much so I decided to fire up on it with my mapp torch. I love the color it's taking on. I still don't know how to grind clips so I don't know exactly what I'm gonna do there yet. Here's a progress shot from about 30 mins ago.
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Really nice work Kevin

Well done
 
Really nice work Kevin

Well done

Thanks!
Today I brought the bevel height almost up to the spine, finished fitting the guard, started profiling the guard, and sanded the blade up to 1000 grit, buffed, sanded more, buffed, then did a quick etch. This is really starting to come together now. Tomorrow I plan to cut out the Damascus piece for the pommel. I'm going to forge weld 2 pieces together kind of like a 2 tiered cake and radius the fillet so the center is thicker than the perimeter. While I'm at it I plan to weld or braze some pin stock to the inside to keep the Damascus "clocked". I'll then take my rotary tool and shape it to match the grain of the elk. I trimmed a piece off the guard to make into an acorn type but for the end of the tang. All of this might sound familiar if you've ever seen some Damascus Fisk bowies. Let's just hope mine comes out 1/16th as nice.
Guard fit done, no daylight!
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Today's progress.
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One thing I can't decide on is if I should put some form of spacer between the guard and antler. I have some leather that I could cut a washer from, I also have multiple colors of g10 liners. Any thoughts?
 
I like spacers on hidden tangs. I think a piece of copper or brass would look good with the stag. If you don't have copper sheet, you can always cut a piece of pipe or a copper fitting and hammer it flat.

Looking really good there.


Here's one of mine with a spacer.

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I found a couple scratches that got by me so I took the whole blade down to 220 and worked back up to 600. I got the guard fit to about 95% and didn't like the shoulders so I sanded on those some more. I ground the false edge, and then I filled the antler with white epoxy that we use for setting intakes in the bottom of jet boats. It's really hard when cured, you can tap it and machine it. Once filled, I covered the tang with Vaseline and shoved it into the antler where I wanted the knife to set. I also started shaping the guards finger notch and profile.
This pic was prior to epoxy in the handle. The bottom of the antler will come up more lining up better with the ricasso and choil.
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Showing the false edge
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