Random damascus

[jdm61]

Is it just me, or are we seeing a lot more knives made with plain old random damascus these days? I see this in kitchen knives and in high end sporting/collectible knives, even from very well known master smiths. Is this some kind of "back to basics" movement or is it just hard to get the extra money even for moderately more complex patterns?

 

[Don Hanson III]

Well, I never stopped making random. It's always been popular.

 

[jdm61]

Yeah, but you do crazy stuff like 2 gazillion layer random pattern. But seriously, i have just been noticing it with kitchen ones and saw that Burt Foster had some very handsome, but fairly simple damascus blades up for sale.

Well, I never stopped making random. It's always been popular.

 

[javand]

I don't think you're incorrect about the difficulty of obtaining the value for really complex patterns. Some of my mosaics incur 80% or higher losses in metal by the time they're finished. You can make randoms, and variations on that theme, with 10% loss. Pressed in patterns, are somewhere in the middle.

Lots of new people in the scene, not just makers, but customers. Many "newcomers" are drawn to randoms, for whatever reason. I often get requests for really low layer, "bold" randoms or variations from makers, which I really dislike, but knife buyers in a certain price range really love. However, that's a stark contrast between nice medium-to-high layer, super active and chatoyant high end randoms.

On big knives especially, it's really difficult to justify the added cost of complex mosaics on anything below a certain price threshold though, even still, you're likely not covering your time, where as I could make enough randoms billets to last me 10 years of making bowies, in a week if I was determined (exaggerating, slightly).

I don't see any reason to discourage it, the nice thing is, even for the "simplest" pattern, there's tons of room for variation and distinction. If I were making a lot of kitchen knives, I'd be using them like crazy.

 

[Ian Fifelski]

I don't think you're incorrect about the difficulty of obtaining the value for really complex patterns. Some of my mosaics incur 80% or higher losses in metal by the time they're finished. You can make randoms, and variations on that theme, with 10% loss. Pressed in patterns, are somewhere in the middle.

Lots of new people in the scene, not just makers, but customers. Many "newcomers" are drawn to randoms, for whatever reason. I often get requests for really low layer, "bold" randoms or variations from makers, which I really dislike, but knife buyers in a certain price range really love. However, that's a stark contrast between nice medium-to-high layer, super active and chatoyant high end randoms.

On big knives especially, it's really difficult to justify the added cost of complex mosaics on anything below a certain price threshold though, even still, you're likely not covering your time, where as I could make enough randoms billets to last me 10 years of making bowies, in a week if I was determined (exaggerating, slightly).

I don't see any reason to discourage it, the nice thing is, even for the "simplest" pattern, there's tons of room for variation and distinction. If I were making a lot of kitchen knives, I'd be using them like crazy.

Agreed. When I was a 'newcomer' I was drawn to the random patterns as well. I like to use my knives and all the pattern on the blade looked chaotic and distracting, but I really like the idea of layered steel. So random was a more 'natural' looking pattern. I also like really natural looking handles. Plain wood appealed to me and the dyed burls and crazy figure wasn't something I was fond of.

Now that I have been making for a few years, there is that urge to get "better!" and "more amazing" and to hone my skills further, so I have slowly gained an interest and liking to mosaic and exotic wood handles. But I believe many buyers that have not been looking into knives for very long, like the simpler designs like I did.

 

[jdm61]

Metal loss for sure, but the LABOR is the big piece of that complex stuff. I have only made very simple crushed W Ferry flip mosaic and boy it took a lot of time. In comparison, I don't lose a whole bunch on pressed ladder for say a kitchen knife. I think that I lose more because I have a small press. As much ends up as scale as does ground off tops of the ladder. I have gone with ladder on the majority of the pieces that I have done because it seems to be a semi-premium product that looks good and has minimal chance of screwups beyond those you normally run into even with random like cold shuts.

I don't think you're incorrect about the difficulty of obtaining the value for really complex patterns. Some of my mosaics incur 80% or higher losses in metal by the time they're finished. You can make randoms, and variations on that theme, with 10% loss. Pressed in patterns, are somewhere in the middle.

Lots of new people in the scene, not just makers, but customers. Many "newcomers" are drawn to randoms, for whatever reason. I often get requests for really low layer, "bold" randoms or variations from makers, which I really dislike, but knife buyers in a certain price range really love. However, that's a stark contrast between nice medium-to-high layer, super active and chatoyant high end randoms.

On big knives especially, it's really difficult to justify the added cost of complex mosaics on anything below a certain price threshold though, even still, you're likely not covering your time, where as I could make enough randoms billets to last me 10 years of making bowies, in a week if I was determined (exaggerating, slightly).

I don't see any reason to discourage it, the nice thing is, even for the "simplest" pattern, there's tons of room for variation and distinction. If I were making a lot of kitchen knives, I'd be using them like crazy.

 

[javand]

Metal loss for sure, but the LABOR is the big piece of that complex stuff. I have only made very simple crushed W Ferry flip mosaic and boy it took a lot of time. In comparison, I don't lose a whole bunch on pressed ladder for say a kitchen knife. I think that I lose more because I have a small press. As much ends up as scale as does ground off tops of the ladder. I have gone with ladder on the majority of the pieces that I have done because it seems to be a semi-premium product that looks good and has minimal chance of screwups beyond those you normally run into even with random like cold shuts.

Lol yeah, I didn't even want to get into the labor factor. Some mosaics take a week of work, I can make a big random in an hour, not counting thermal cycling and surface grinding (which is a given for damascus I sell).

 

[jdm61]

All we have to offer is labor unless you are buying crazy expensive materials.........like someone else's whacko mosaic damascus.

Lol yeah, I didn't even want to get into the labor factor. Some mosaics take a week of work, I can make a big random in an hour, not counting thermal cycling and surface grinding (which is a given for damascus I sell).

 

[javand]

Agreed. When I was a 'newcomer' I was drawn to the random patterns as well. I like to use my knives and all the pattern on the blade looked chaotic and distracting, but I really like the idea of layered steel. So random was a more 'natural' looking pattern. I also like really natural looking handles. Plain wood appealed to me and the dyed burls and crazy figure wasn't something I was fond of.

Now that I have been making for a few years, there is that urge to get "better!" and "more amazing" and to hone my skills further, so I have slowly gained an interest and liking to mosaic and exotic wood handles. But I believe many buyers that have not been looking into knives for very long, like the simpler designs like I did.

There's a certain factor, I'm sure there's a term for it, psychologically speaking, but I don't know what it is; where as your skills as an artist or craftsman (whatever) progress, you become much more interested, and impressed, by advanced, difficult to achieve technique, or technical aspects, the more you yourself have developed your skills, thus, having a greater ability to even recognize what requires elevated skill or circumstance to accomplish. A novice maker, or collector, simply doesn't have that frame of reference.



I grew up in a family of musicians, so this is an idea I've been familiar with, I myself, not a musician, but always found it interesting to see the eclectic, often times, difficult to listen to, music that my family and friends were into. It was pretty clear in many cases, that, you had to be a musician to appreciate it. However for them, it was unbelievable that everyone didn't appreciate it like they did.


I sell a lot of my knives to other makers. I do a lot of things, that only other makers can appreciate, be it complex mosaics, esoteric construction methods, uncompromising(in regards to being faithful to what I like, or think works) aesthetic and material choices, etc. I consider it a badge of honor, and it's exactly how I want to make knives and steel, however, it's pretty easily arguable that it's not the smartest business decision I could make.

 

[javand]

All we have to offer is labor unless you are buying crazy expensive materials.........like someone else's whacko mosaic damascus.

Yeah, true enough, and I'll affirm if there was any doubt, on the topic at hand; my crazy whacko mosaic damascus, is much less profitable be it in billet or knife form, by an order of magnitude, when you factor in labor. However, the prestige factor, will always be difficult to put a price tag on, and it sure is fun to make!

 

[weo]

I have gone with ladder on the majority of the pieces that I have done because it seems to be a semi-premium product that looks good and has minimal chance of screwups beyond those you normally run into even with random like cold shuts.

And there's a few ways to vary the ladder to make it look like a more complex pattern than it is.

 

[Adam Buttry]

There's a certain factor, I'm sure there's a term for it, psychologically speaking, but I don't know what it is; where as your skills as an artist or craftsman (whatever) progress, you become much more interested, and impressed, by advanced, difficult to achieve technique, or technical aspects, the more you yourself have developed your skills, thus, having a greater ability to even recognize what requires elevated skill or circumstance to accomplish. A novice maker, or collector, simply doesn't have that frame of reference.

Dude, you know me well enough now to know, that this statement really rings true for me personally. BUT, and you can call me crazy, I still find some of the random patterns quite appealing visually. Even though I know they don't require near the labor or artistry. Nearly all pattern welded steels appeal to me, but the bolder contrast of some random patterns just seem to suit the overall aesthetic of certain builds better. At least to my eye anyway.

 

[javand]

Dude, you know me well enough now to know, that this statement really rings true for me personally. BUT, and you can call me crazy, I still find some of the random patterns quite appealing visually. Even though I know they don't require near the labor or artistry. Nearly all pattern welded steels appeal to me, but the bolder contrast of some random patterns just seem to suit the overall aesthetic of certain builds better. At least to my eye anyway.

Haha well, next time you come by, remind me, I've got something laying around you'll like.


I wouldn't say I'm ever *excited* by a random variant, but, because of it's ubiquity; the fact that pretty much anybody that's ever made damascus, starts with them, it is impressive in it's own right; when you see an exceptional example, or a variation that really stands apart. There are a few makers out there, whom, I can always tell, even before than from the style of construction, who's knife it is, just from seeing their steel. Sometimes it just because they've got some funky dies on their power hammer, or some particular way they do their stack, but for whatever reason, some just can't be confused. I doubt anybody would say that about mine, but I do have a couple of ways to do them I think are at least marginally interesting also.