Random Thought Thread

JohnBarleycorn said:
I'm going to put on my tin foil conspiracist hat (no relation to tinfoil hat timmy tinfoil hat timmy ) and speculate that it is a frequent trick used by people that wish to ban certain breeds of dog because they're "dangerous". The discussion goes like this:

I don't like this breed of dog. It should be banned. How can we make it sound dangerous?
Well, we can point out the dog's jaw can close with a force of 200 lbs.
That doesn't sound all that scary!
Oh, ok, well, lets assume all that force is transmitted through the canines. They're about a 1/4 inch in diameter. There's two of them. So, the area of 2 canines is, lets see, (pi*(1/8)^2)*2. That's (roughly) 3/32 inch. So, that means that 200 lbs of force is delivered over 3/32 inch, for approximately 2,100 psi.
Oh, YES! That sounds much scarier. Let's ban (insert your preferred breed here).

o_O😏:D
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Sooo… all they have to do, is get ‘dangerous breeds’ a set of dentures like the guy in the Trivago ads, and it’s all good.

Big ‘ol chompers that greatly reduce the PSI, AND maintains the effectiveness of the animal as a guard dog/deterrent.

It’s disturbing enough when that guy does his open mouth smile to show the WHOLE set of dentures. Can you imagine a pitbull snarling at you, and you see those when its lips curl? I’d NOPE right the heck outta there 😂😂😂
 
Nathan the Machinist said:
That's my whole point. Talking about it in terms of PSI is meaningless
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I have always found it amusing reading about dog, hyena, wolverine, shark species/breeds and which have the most power. For one thing, how do they know that the animal was biting as hard as it possibly can? Also, is the bite-force measuring device placed in the point of max applied pressure? Etc.

Having been bitten by a Tibetan Mastiff and a Doberman- I can tell you they both frigging hurt! Neither are ranked near the top for dogs. I sure as hell don’t want to find out what being bitten by a Kangal (or a wolverine) feels like.

Back to important P.S.I. like tires…. Do you run lower when off road?🤣
 
Well then

I serviced and overhauled the heating system together with a guy,who knows this stuff, at my home.

After that, I spent two days in the forest.

I’m fully recharged and feel absolutely wonderful.

All I need now is to find some Coca-Cola.

!!I don’t want to go back to work for the next couple of days!!
 
SharpBits said:
PSI or N/mm2 has always been used to measure that kind of force. For instance the compressive strength of concrete. I don't see how it is meaningless. Are you are yanking our chain?

And, some dogs have been selectively bred to have higher bite force. Those dogs get banned because they cannot ban the bad owners.
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Dobermans have much more powerful bite than pitbulls or Malinois, and still much lower than Kangals or Ovcharkas. Truth is, it does not take a very strong bite to do lots of damage. Ragdolling (shaking while holding a bite) is incredibly destructive regardless of the breed.
 
beeinak said:
Dobermans have much more powerful bite than pitbulls or Malinois, and still much lower than Kangals or Ovcharkas. Truth is, it does not take a very strong bite to do lots of damage. Ragdolling (shaking while holding a bite) is incredibly destructive regardless of the breed.
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Right. I think every dog meant to guard or fight bulls or bears (back in history) will have a very high bite force. Not much of a deterrent if thy can only lick you to death. :p High bite force alone does not make any animal dangerous in and of itself. Most of the time it is bad owners not training their dogs correctly.
 
When my wife got that bite on the ear from our dog a year or more back, the urgent care called animal control in to interview us and I had to send in a form after two weeks, (like an after-action report) that all was well etc etc

There was no way in this world I was gonna let anyone take the dog from my home...and if he was going to be dispatched, under any circumstances, it would have been by hand, and it would have had to been much more grievous.

(Not to mention, my wife wouldn't stand for anyone taking the dog out of our home. Not sure what his bite PSI is, but man, he's got some sharp teeth when we roughhouse.
 
Nathan the Machinist said:
When they talk about an animal's bite force they always talk about it in terms of "PSI"

I've never understood that

It seems like it should just be pounds. This animal can bite with this much force. Pounds per square inch? What square inch are they talking about?
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The one in its mouth duh
 
SharpBits said:
PSI or N/mm2 has always been used to measure that kind of force. For instance the compressive strength of concrete. I don't see how it is meaningless. Are you are yanking our chain?

And, some dogs have been selectively bred to have higher bite force. Those dogs get banned because they cannot ban the bad owners.
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I'm not yanking your chain and I'm saying it's meaningless because it's literally actually meaningless. It doesn't mean anything

When they say that a doberman has a bite force of 200 psi. That doesn't mean anything meaningful in this context. 200 lb of bite force means something. That is a measurement of force. But 200 lb per square inch? What the hell are they talking about?

Take for example a pencil lead. Mechanical pencil, .5 mm. The surface area of the end of that pencil lead is about .0003 square inches. So you will generate 200 PSI of pressure at the tip of that pencil lead with about 1 oz of force.

Using PSI to measure the strength of a dog bite has you equating me pressing a mechanical pencil into your hand with one ounce of force being equivalent to the bite of a Doberman Pinscher

It makes no sense

PSI is pressure not force. Without defining the size of the object applying that pressure, the force is undefined. It doesn't mean anything, it's meaningless.

Now, maybe the apparatus they used to measure the bite force is a cylinder with a surface area of one square inch (or calibrated to equal this) and you can then calculate the bite force by just looking at the pressure that is built in that system. But this is not specified anywhere.

Here's another way of looking at it. I have a 50 ton hydraulic press here. However the pressure in the hydraulic system is only about 3,000 PSI. Using 3,000 PSI of hydraulic pressure I'm able to generate 100,000 lb of force.

Pressure and force are not the same thing and without defining the area involved, it's a meaningless measurement. It's like giving a velocity in distance without specifying the time.
 
Nathan the Machinist said:
I'm not yanking your chain and I'm saying it's meaningless because it's literally actually meaningless. It doesn't mean anything

When they say that a doberman has a bite force of 200 psi. That doesn't mean anything meaningful in this context. 200 lb of bite force means something. That is a measurement of force. But 200 lb per square inch? What the hell are they talking about?

Take for example a pencil lead. Mechanical pencil, .5 mm. The surface area of the end of that pencil lead is about .0003 square inches. So you will generate 200 PSI of pressure at the tip of that pencil lead with about 1 oz of force.

Using PSI to measure the strength of a dog bite has you equating me pressing a mechanical pencil into your hand with one ounce of force being equivalent to the bite of a Doberman Pinscher

It makes no sense

PSI is pressure not force. Without defining the size of the object applying that pressure, the force is undefined. It doesn't mean anything, it's meaningless.

Now, maybe the apparatus they used to measure the bite force is a cylinder with a surface area of one square inch (or calibrated to equal this) and you can then calculate the bite force by just looking at the pressure that is built in that system. But this is not specified anywhere.

Here's another way of looking at it. I have a 50 ton hydraulic press here. However the pressure in the hydraulic system is only about 3,000 PSI. Using 3,000 PSI of hydraulic pressure I'm able to generate 100,000 lb of force.

Pressure and force are not the same thing and without defining the area involved, it's a meaningless measurement. It's like giving a velocity in distance without specifying the time.
Click to expand...
I believe the bite tests are testing the amount pressure generated by the jaw muscles, not the actual force each individual tooth is applying on the target. Considering the wide variety of animal teeth and beaks and bony ridges that animals have, this probably the best way to do it for unified measurements and comparisons.

There are transducers that can measure each tooth’s pressure for human bite tests.
 
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