Range & Emphasis

Joined
Jan 3, 2000
Messages
103
This post is kind of a spin off of Sing's post because he got me thinking. :-) Most of the FMAs we see here in the states emphasize mid and close range tactics. I don't know whether that's because these are the most popular styles that have the most followers, or because they are flashier and attract more attention, or because that's the ranges that most people feel are the most important. Most of what I've trained has been at middle range, next would be close range, but long range only got kind of a "passing mention." You don't see many guys really emphasizing long range methods. Do a survey of the videos available on the market. You won't find much dealing with long range. Even in a system like Lameco that is supposed to incorporate all 3 ranges, what you usually see demonstrated is middle range. Why is that? I am reaching the conclusion that long range is extremely important and the most effective of the three. Why isn't it trained more? Watch the Dog Brother fights in their videos. They primarily stalk from long range, look for or create an opening, clash quickly, and then disengage or go to the ground. You see very little of the mid & close range exchanges that so many of us spend countless hours developing. You don't see any but the most basic of disarms. Think about it....how much time do you spend working on long range tactics and closing the gap vs. time spent doing sinawalli drills, sumbrada, disarms, hubud, etc.? Yet what is going to be the most effective in a real exchange? Watching Eric Knaus fight reminds me much more of western swordsmanship than it does of what we usually think of as FMAs. Western martial arts seem to put their emphasis at long range and work on evasiveness and timing more than defensive techniques. Maybe we should be reconsidering some of the tactics we have learned in our FMA studies. Long range methods seem to be simpler and more direct than working at the other ranges. Perhaps that is why they are being neglected. It takes much more time and training to do the mid to close range tactics well. They are "flashier" and fun to work on with a partner. They also translate the most directly to empty hand applications. But my feeling is that for serious weapons fighting, long range methods are safer, easier to develop, simpler, and more likely to work. So, to tie into Sing's thread....I think that a simplified method based on long range would be in no way inferior to the more complicated methods that have lots of drills and training at mid & close range. So as an informal poll, how much time do you all spend seriously training at long range in your systems? Thanks for any feedback.

Keith

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Attitude Is Everything!
 
As a corto system we do spend a lot of time training to close the gap, because that's where we need/want to be. As for stalking at long range, looking for or creating an opening, clashing quickly and then disengaging ... that's how you play a corto style to my knowledge! You can't just crash in carelessly (not for long anyway), so you have to look for/create an opening to get inside where you can work. However, you shouldn't dissengage unless you have finished off your opponent or have lost control of the fight and need to "regroup". If you disengage before you finish your opponent, then you have to close the gap AGAIN, but corto is also a dangerous place to be if you don't have control because things happen very quickly at this range (especially against another corto player).

As for disarms, my teacher has found (from 20+ years of full contact fighting) that only the basic disarms work RELIABLY in the fury of fighting AGAINST A SKILLED OPPONENT. In other words, the fancier/complex disarms WILL/CAN work, but the basic disarms are your "high percentage shots". In a real fight (ie they're trying to kill you), are you going to go with a cool disarm that you can pull off say 40% of the time, or one that you can pull off say 90% of the time?

Keith, think back to the seminar that you came to at our place and think about how much time we spent on evasiveness and timing. Remember all those repetitions of "side stepping", "knife tapping" and "fitting drill"? How much time did we spend on "defensive tactics" as opposed to attacking & counter-attacking? I would consider "blocking" with stick to stick contact as a defensive tactic, and hitting their hand as a counter-attack. Corto players use evasion & timing but differently than largo players.

My teacher says that when he was training in Pekiti-tirsia, Leo (Gaje) would always say that there is no defense in Pekiti, only attack and counter-attack. Also that Leo said that he teaches corto range first because: it's the most difficult range to learn to fight in and because generally if the person is serious about killing you, he's going to be in your face (excluding projectile weapons or course).

Realistically, every system has it's strengths and weaknesses. One severe weakness of largo systems (that I've seen anyway) is what happens if you're attacked in a crowded bar or an elevator or some other place where space is at a premium? By the same token, largo is at an advantage in say an open field where they have a lot of room to move. However, if someone comes at me in an open field, with any weapon, you can be sure that he's going to have to win a foot race before the fight even begins
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(assuming of course that running is an option).

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton



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Full Contact Martial Arts Association.

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."




[This message has been edited by Dave Fulton (edited 03-06-2000).]
 
Keith,

I read your thread once and didn't reply because I'm not FMA. But, it stuck with me so I came back to reply. I come from a little bit of a combined tradition, having taken Japanese styles for years followed by very American bowie dueling. In that style, long range was emphasized the most, as was emphasized (to a degree) almost to the expense of medium and close range.

I agree with your assessment that long range is a great way to practice, and is simpler. My instructor emphasized range and timing over technique, which was helpful for me at all ranges. I would advocate the same thing you envision, long range being emphasized as well as short and medium range. (Rather than my experience, where short and medium were given short shrift, leaving me flailing at those ranges.)

Just an outsider's perspective . . .

Matt

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Waxes Eloquent, Leader of the Terrible Ironic Horde and Mighty Brain Spewer
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My system is Lucaylucay Kali/JKD. We spend a considerable amount of time on working Largo Mano range and entering drills. We also work this range with heavy, ax-handle type weapons that demand a different kind of body motion and follow thru than your lighter rattan sticks.

Why don't you see more of it? For starters, if you have more than one or two guys going at it, it takes a LOT of room. One of the basics of our style of Largo Mano is lots of footwork, zoning and angulation. 4 sets of partners swinging 3 foot+ sticks at each other, while moving around the room makes for an exciting environment! We normally practice outdoors where we can spread out.
When working indoors, we normally only have tow sets really going at it and the rest watch and then rotate in.

This would not be the type of thing you could do at a typical FMA seminar, simply because of the needed room and IMHO the added risk for injury. It also does not lend itself to the 1/4 to 1/2 speed training done at most seminars.
 
Hi Guys! Thanks for the input.

Dave:
I appreciate what you are saying about your system and agree with your comments. But I also think you guys are more the exception than the rule when it comes to a "corto" system. Your "Full Contact" emphasis makes all the difference. Most corto systems would not stalk from long range, look for or create an opening, clash quickly, and disengage as we both described. At least not from what I've seen (you guys being the exception!) I remember the seminar well.:-)
Evasiveness and timing were key elements. And as you said..."corto is a dangerous place to be." Makes sense to me to spend as little time there as necessary to get the job done. Get your licks in and get out. If you've been at all effective, closing again won't be a problem. If you stand toe-to-toe with someone exchanging blows you're bound to get hit. Just the law of averages. :-)

Matt:
Thanks for chiming in. You made a good point about not neglecting mid & close range either. I think a rebalancing is more in order. Rather than spending all the training time at mid & close range and only giving long range a passing mention, we should really work long range tactics well and supplement it with mid & close range "fail-safe" or "back-up" methods.

Protector:
Good point about limited seminar space. I hadn't thought of that. But I think it goes beyond that as well. You don't see long range given much coverage in video instruction either. Space wouldn't be a concern. And I don't think long range methods are only for large, heavy sticks. Even a Serrada stick is workable at long range. Its only a matter of where you choose to work from...how you maintain your space. Staying just out of reach of the opponent while still being able to whack his weapon arm makes good sense to me. The size of your weapon is irrelevant. I'm not quite sure why you think long range drills don't lend themselves well to 1/4 or 1/2 speed training. Maybe its just those big honkin sticks you were using! :-)

What do you guys think about the effectiveness of thrusts from long range with a stick? Obviously a blade would do major damage. But can a stick thrust generate enough power to effectively hurt the opponent?

Keith

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Attitude Is Everything!
 
To be short, long range (maximum effective range of the stick in your hand) was emphasized because weapons were made to attack at certain distance when I learned FMA.

I wouldn't do the long range thrust with a stick, at least by itself.

 
Smoke:

I have to agree with you about the long thrust. The last time I was weapons sparring I was working with shinai and my opponent was an epee expert. I thought about doing like an angle 5, 6, 7 thrusting combination, but realized that she could easily deflect those attacks because they are identical to what she would see on the fencing strip. So I opted for a furocious cutting attack directed towards the neck and arms and "won." The long thrust is nice, but in order for it to be effective, it must have power (and speed) behind it. Because it is now a thrust and not a poke, the opponent can more easily deflect/evade the thrust and counter attack -- while your stick is still extended before you have a chance to pull it back.

Just my 1/50th of a dollar....

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SFC

"Is it easier to fight them or to kill them?"
 
We haven't even talked about the fun stuff yet. Like

Two people defanging each other
People who loooove blocking
People who simultaneously "kill" each other aka "I forgot to move out of the way"
People who only have one hit in sparring "I just love my Angle #....."

 
OK...this is how I see the thrust working from long range. As was pointed out, you are vulnerable if you're arm is overextended and the opponent has the chance to counter. So you avoid that. :-) Evasiveness is key at long range....you can simply dodge many of the blows coming at you while using adjustments of footwork. If you are using a "point on" reference as in WMAs, then after evading or "voiding" an attack you can immediately spring back in response with a thrust. This thrust would be delivered before the opponent could recover from the attack he just launched. It wouldn't be a "poke", but rather a driving "push" with impact that would rock the opponent back and set him up for further strikes. This is the equivalent of "closing the gap with firepower" and takes advantage of the full length of the stick as you are going in. The important point of using a thrust/lunge from long range is that the thrust must be initiated before the body moves. This way, the blow is already half way there before the opponent realizes it is coming. No telegraphing. Its just like a fencing thrust rather than being like a #5,6,or 7 from middle range. A stick isn't going to skewer them like a sword would, but done properly and landed solidly it would be the equivalent of a punch to the ribs or face.
Anyway, that's how I see it. :-)

Keith

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Attitude Is Everything!
 
From what I understand, if you want to hurt someone and take them out you have to go to close quarters. You can't completely stop and opponent from long range. You can annoy them and hit them until they drop their weapon but it is difficult to do real damage if they are skilled. I personally don't like the largo game. I'd run the first chance I got. If I were in any fights I would have to be forced into at least medio or corto. Not saying that I don't train largo, I just think the real fighting happens in closer ranges up to takedowns and groundfighting.

Dog brothers close for a reason. You don't take out someone at a distance. It's also a duel. They have to start there but they always close in, in their stick fights.

Jason
 
I agree, my longest range strike isn't my most powerful, it's just another skill.

Possibly the only time it gets fuzzy is with unequal weapons like the stick vs spear/staff.
 
No, I think you guys are misunderstanding the range thing. At least according to how I use the concept. Of course you have to be close to hit someone. By definition if I'm close enough to strike them in the head then I'm no longer at long range. Range is a matter of where you choose to work from. A long range fighter chooses to stay on the outside and look for or create an opening, close to do damage, but then to get out of the danger zone quickly and back into long range. If he has been effective when he closed the first time, then closing again won't be a problem. His philosophy is that "proximity negates skill" and standing toe to toe with someone is a bad idea because the law of averages says one of those blows is going to get thru. He uses all three ranges, but chooses to work primarily from long range because he feels safer being able to evade and stay just out of reach until he chooses to close. In contrast, a close range fighter wants to get in as quickly as possible and stay in until the opponent is finished. He is counting on his greater skill to carry him thru the "danger zone." He wants to control on the inside and feels comfortable exchanging toe to toe. He doesn't want to disengage and have to close the gap again. Two different philosophies. One is not better than the other, just different. But from what I've seen, the long range approach seems to be in the minority.

Keith

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Attitude Is Everything!
 
Ah, I see what you mean. I think a lot of people see that strategy as defensive (defang only no follow ups) which is probably why we don't see it as much.
Unlike closer ranges where we can go and do some hacking but the exchange rate of hits goes up of course.
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Greetings!

Fantastic thread you guys
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! You all have made some very good points.

Myers, your understanding of range and its use is terrific. And Smoke, your last post was right on. If you close and stay there, the chances of exchanging cuts goes way up no matter how good you are.

Myers, as far as effectiveness of long range stick thrusts, lets look at just two examples.

First, one day when I was first getting into Doce Pares stick work, I was playing around throwing thrusts and slashes at a cardboard packing crate with a standard 28" long, 3/4" dia. manau rattan escrima stick. I was amazed at how well the stick thrust and slashed through the heavy cardboard- almost as well as a blade. So I figured, what the hell, and threw a lunging thrust at the fire retardant cinderblock wall of my garage- the stick thrust right through the cinderblock!. How's that for effectiveness?

Next, think back to Eric Knauss fighting double sticks against another dog brother(who's name escapes me at the moment) armed with a bokken. Eric successfully defended against the slashing attacks, but got a few ribs broken by the thrusts. Eric stated that fighting a bokken was the hardest thing he had ever had to do.

Thrusts are often much harder to see and evade effectively than slashes. We are evolutionarily preprogrammed to expect and defend against angle #1 and #2 slashes- men have been attacking eachother that way since the dawn of Mankind. That's why the sword arts of most cultures have enventually evolved to emphasize the thrust. Even in the F/IMA all the high level Espada y Daga flows are thrust flows. Slashes soften them up, thrusts finish them.

You guys are all on the right track without a doubt
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. Keep sparring it out and you'll continue to discover that the ebbs and flows of the fight dictate that you start at largo, defanging if you can- which is safest for you- or if that's not possible, then you have to create the hole with mobility and feints, etc., and then close quickly and decisively, get in your one, two, or three strikes while at the same time defending with your live hand or other weapon hand, and then get the hell out to largo again before you get seriously cut yourself. IMO that's the safest- if there is a safest in this game against a truly skilled opponent- way to close.

Keep blasting!

Mario

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Gaucho

Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.


 
Hi Mario! Sounds like we share a similar philosophy. Could it be due to both of us having some background in WMAs? :-) Thanks for the examples. I certainly wouldn't want to take a thrust that has the ability to punch holes in cinderblock! I remember the DB fight you referred to. Knaus did indeed say that the bokken was one of the hardest weapons to deal with because it has a point and could deliver thrusts. Conversely, he chewed right thru the tapado guys that were all slash. I wonder too if the people that do a lot of close-in work train much with blades. Like I said before, if you are trading blows toe to toe the law of averages says something is going to get thru. When you're dealing with a blade you can't afford that. So again....I question what seems to me to be an over-emphasis on mid & close range in the majority of FMAs that are popular here in the US. Thanks for the input.

Keith

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Attitude Is Everything!
 
I'm going to break from being PC for a minute and make an observation, one that will probably get me flamed but ... what the hey!
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Keith, I know your back ground, so please don't take offense at this.

From my experience, most of the "medio" and "corto" people you see are derived from one generation of Inosanto Blend or another. Having trained with various "Inosanto Blend" practitioners over the years and having been a student of one instructor under Guro Dan, I never really saw any appreciable training time given to footwork. They'd talk about different types of footwork and show you a little, but the vast majority (I'd say more than 90% in my experience) of training time was spent in static sombrada, hubud, etc drills. Modern Arnis is pretty much the same as far as foot work goes, again in my experience. Before anyone flames me, I'm not saying that this is how Inosanto Blend or Modern Arnis are supposed to be taught ... just how everyone that *I* have seen has taught them. If you are learning a close range style, but not how to use foot work to stalk, close, kill & escape then aren't you bound to end up standing toe to toe and trading shots?

That being said, and considering that Guro Dan and Guro Presas are probably the most prolific FMA teachers in the USA, is it any wonder that the majority of medio or corto people you see use the "crash 'n bash" fighting style?

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton.



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Full Contact Martial Arts Association.

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."


 
Dave,

IMO, you are absolutely correct in your assessment. We encounter this mobility problem very often when folks from other places come to train with us. It is usually the very first thing that we have to retrain people to do- move!

A knife fight is not like an empty hands fight, or even a stick fight. In a knife fight, you simply cannot afford to take a cut on the way in, or while you're in close, or on the way out. And, you certainly cannot stay in close and trade shots, no matter how good, how fast you think you are. It's just too dangerous. In knife fighting/knife sparring, whole body mobility and footwork is the key to survival and success. You have to stay out of your opponent's range, pick your moment, close effectively without getting seriously cut on the way in, cut him how ever many times you can without too much risk to yourself, and then get out fast. And if you can end it from largo range without ever risking yourself, that's the ultimate success.

The above is what works- I didn't its easy, just that it works. Anything else is delusional- a lack of understanding of just how dangerous an opponent with a blade really is.

I can see that you have experienced the same things we have Dave. Thanks for having the gonadal fortitude to say so.

Mario

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Gaucho

Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.




[This message has been edited by Gaucho (edited 03-09-2000).]
 
Upon further reflection, I think the real problem is simply in how the FMA are trained and taught in the USA and that my observations of the Inosanto Blend and Modern Arnis people are really just a symptom of the problem.

A lot of FMA instruction in the USA takes place via seminars, which ties back into Inosanto Blend and Modern Arnis being the most prolific systems here. Let's face it, people aren't going to keep going to seminars if they aren't having fun and it just isn't as much fun to drill footwork for 2 hours as it is to do drills like: sombrada, hubud, knife tapping and disarms. I'm an acception to this rule, but I've found some fun ways to do footwork ... and I'm strange
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Further, people aren't going to sponsor seminars with Inosanto, Presas, Canete, or anyone else, if they're going to loose their shirts because they didn't get enough participants. So, the seminars focus on the fun stuff and neglect the more mundane, but still important, things like foot work and body mechanics.

This is also reflected in and reinforced by daily training. It's not as fun to spend 1 or 2 hours of class drilling foot work and body mechanics, so they get neglected in favor of the fun drills that keep students coming back and paying tuition so the school/club can pay it's bills.

Finally, most people have absolutely no interest in getting hit & bruised or cut and will file a law suit at the drop of a hat. The result is that valuable aspects like full-contact sparring and live blade training are taboo in most schools/clubs because of liability concerns.

The result is what we are discussing here ... which to me isn't really about an over emphasis, or the superiority, of a particular range, but a loss of perspective by the FMA community in general.

If we can find a way to get things like full-contact fighting and live blade training to be the rule rather than the exception, you might be able to convince people of the importance of things like foot work and body mechanics. If you can accomplish that, you might start to see the corto, medio and largo styles played the way they were meant to be played.

Now that I've made all these negative comments about seminars ... don't forget to sign up for our March 25th seminar.
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Actually, I'm only half kidding because (as Keith Myers can attest) you will get lots of time to drill foot work at one of our seminars ... and this one is specifically about generating power via body mechanics and delivering that power.
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Respectfully,

Dave Fulton



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Full Contact Martial Arts Association.

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."




[This message has been edited by Dave Fulton (edited 03-09-2000).]
 
Mario,

Thanks! Btw, I've been meaning to ask you what system you study.

Oh .... and they're STILL trying to retrain me to get out of the way. I'm getting better about it, but old habbits do die hard! :O

Bell well and train hard everyone!

Dave.



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Full Contact Martial Arts Association.

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."


 
Dave,

How are ya?

In terms of the F/IMA stuff, I currently train primarily in Doce Pares Escrima, but with a healthy dose of LAMECO, Kali, Escrima Corta, Pikiti Tirsia, and even a bit of Silat variations thrown in now and then for spice
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. We also use the Canetes' combat judo stuff- which is very effective BTW- to augment our close in work.

Mario

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Gaucho

Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.


 
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