Range & Emphasis

Hi Dave!
Thanks for the input. And I don't take any offense at all! :-) I think you did probably hit the nail on the head. Inosanto variations and Modern Arnis are likely the most prevalent systems here in the U.S., and widely taught via seminars. You're right...a whole seminar on footwork and mobility would be rather boring, and as was pointed out earlier, suffer from a lack of space. Toe to toe flow drills are a lot more fun and a lot more flashy...just not a "high yield" endeavor. :-0 I'm sure Guro Inosanto and his senior instructors are "hell on wheels" when it comes to footwork and mobility. But how well is it filtering down to the masses? You know its kind of funny. My main instructor in the FMAs was an Inosanto student, but has done lots of others as well. He ended up doing his own thing. He tried to impress upon me the importance of range and footwork, but I wanted to do those cool flow drills! From the perspective of years and experience I now wish I had paid a little closer attention to what he was saying. I agree with your comment about it being a "loss of perspective", but I think its this loss of perspective that leads to the over-emphasis. But I see what you are saying and think now that the over-emphasis is not on a particular range...but rather on a particular phase of training. Too much "tappy" drills and not enough actual mixing it up. Anyway...thanks for the input.

Keith

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Attitude Is Everything!
 
The following represents my two pesos worth of opinion and does not necessarily reflect upon the opinions and teachings of my instructors...
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I think it's easier for someone who has trained close/medium range to fight at long than for someone who has trained long to fight at close/medium. Under most circumstances I feel it's easier to close/crash than to keep distance (why most fights end up on the ground).

I agree that footwork is a skill that is often underdeveloped. I took some seminars with Punong Guro Sulite before he passed away and one of my friends was his student for a long time. I can definitely say that the Lameco footwork drills have helped my mobility a great deal.

I was also taught that sometimes you just have to take a hit or a cut. When it comes to knife, you just have to mentally be prepared to take a cut because you're gonna get cut. You just try to take the cut in the least vital area you can and give better than you got.

Working medium/close range also has the advantage that there may be times when you don't have any type of weapon and the other guy does or he has a longer weapon than you. If you can't run, there is a good chance that eventually, you're gonna have to get in close to nullify his range advantage.

Admittedly, empty hand vs knife is pretty damn scary. If I couldn't get a kick to the knee in, or an eye jab, or get my shoe off to use as a buffer, I would have to hope that my close range skills are better than his...

So, if two combatants' effective ranges are different and skills equivalent (weapons or empty hands, and there is no option for retreat or surrender) the guy who is at the disadvantage will want to close and long range fighting will not last very long. If two combatants' effective ranges are equal, once the lesser skilled person realizes that he is lesser skilled at long range, he will want to close and try a different range.

The only time I can see extended fighting at long range is when the guy with the reach advantage also has the skill and footwork advantage. But then, that fight wouldn't last that long either.
 
Samuel,

Your post emphasizes why it is important to train all ranges of combat- no one range is the answer, and as you say, the fight usually encompasses largo, medio, corto, and even ground range.

You are absolutely right that if you only train largo- just like if you only train corto- you will be out of luck.

Let's take a nonFMA example.

Many years ago, I studied Northern White Crane Gung Fu from the incomparable Ron Dong and George Long in S.F.. Now Northern White Crane is an excellent long arm system- fast, evasive, circular, with very powerful long arm strikes. But if the opponent did somehow manage to get in close, you were in trouble. George and Ron understood this, so they taught Wing Tsun attacks and defenses for those times when the opponent managed to close. Excellent thinking outside the traditional Gung Fu box IMO- they did not ignore the possibility that a skilled opponent might be able to get through the Crane defenses, they dealt with it. And we sparred all the time. In this same way, we in the F/IMA need to cover all ranges and continguencies of blade combat in our training. Its the only thing that makes sense. And we need to spar consistently to test and refine our skills.

So, please, spar. If you are not doing it now, START. Test yourselves in a safe, friendly environment. Find out which of those fancy moves you've been training for so long actually work in realtime.

Mario

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Gaucho

Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.


[This message has been edited by Gaucho (edited 03-10-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Gaucho (edited 03-17-2000).]
 
Keith,

I'm glad you didn't take offense, and hope no one else takes offense either.

I forgot to say before that I do agree with you and Mario about the pitfalls of emphasizing just one range. You do need to learn about all the ranges. If you're a corto player you either need to study a medio and a largo style or have friendly sparring sessions with other local groups so that you get the chance face someone with a different style (as Mario was saying). All the sparring in the world won't help if it's only within your own group because you become inbred. That's why we're always trying to get other groups in to spar with us. Of course, to do this everyone has to be able to leave their ego at the door.

What we need, IMHO, is more people promoting events like the Dog Brothers' "Gatherings", where there's no trophies & no winners, just a chance to test, hone and learn.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton



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Full Contact Martial Arts Association.

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."


 
Hi Samuel:
Just a couple of points that didn't seem to quite add up to me. You stated that it was easier for someone trained at close/med range to fight at long range than vice versa. But you also went on to state that is was easier to close/crash than to keep distance. Maybe its just me, but I think these are conflicting comments. I agree that it is easier to close/crash than to keep distance. Maybe that's why so many fail to use long range effectively. But that would seem to suggest that it is easier for a long range fighter to end up at close range than it is for a close range fighter to maintain long range. Assuming neither neglects any of the ranges in their training, the long range fighter is more likely to be able to work at close range than the close range fighter is at long range. Long range is something to be maintained...close range often "just happens." So wouldn't it be easier for a long range fighter to work at close range than a close range fighter to work at long range? Maybe its just semantics. :-) I do agree that one must have the mindset that expects to get cut in a knife-fight. But I also think its a matter of degree. You should expect it so that it doesn't come as a shock if it happens, but you damn well better do everything to avoid it! Standing toe to toe and exchanging blows just doesn't make good sense to me. Too often the attitude I see is that "oh well, guro said you're going to get cut anyway, so I might as well just go for it." That's kind of a dangerous idea. There is a difference between acknowledging that a cut is possible and EXPECTING to be cut.
Finally, I didn't quite follow the part at the end about different ranges and different skills. A fight is not going to last long at any range. If I am clearly outclassed by an opponent then I have two options available to me. I can maintain long range for as long as possible to avoid injury and then RUN at the first opportunity. If getting out of there is not an option, then I can crash in and hope that he isn't as good on the ground as he is on his feet. I think option 1 is the safest.

Keith

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Attitude Is Everything!
 
Mario & Dave,

I agree, no substitute for actual combat, but in absentia, the more realistic the training, the better; and it's good to mix it up outside one's own group - get a feel for different energies, avoid stagnation...
It's terrible that people would not want to spar at all; it's like, what's the purpose? Unless maybe you scared the doo doo outta them...
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Personally, I like getting my butt kicked (in practice, that is); I'm not learning/improving very much if I'm the best one in my training circle... luckily, that's usually not the case...

Keith,

Sorry for the confusion, I probably just didn't voice my opinions clearly enough. I think what I meant to say was that I thought fighting at close range takes more skill than long (due to the fact that you have more weapons/targets/options available) so someone who spends more time close in and has experience in being aware of all those factors would have an easier time fighting at a longer range than someone who spends more time at a long range fighting at a closer range. And, like you guys have been saying, you gotta crosstrain and you gotta be able to flow from range to range.

I agree, not getting cut or hit at all is the highest skill level or form... As far as mental attitude; Bottom line? "Whatever it takes, I'm going to go home to my family tonight."

Your last comment is pretty much what I was trying to say with all my blabber about skill levels and ranges and stuff...
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Hi guys:
I thought of another factor to consider when talking about ranges....a weapon in the check hand. Everyone acknowledges that FMA Espada Y Daga techniques came from the Spanish methods. But you usually see it done with a standard single-edge knife, not an actual dagger. The "daga" used by the spanish would have been the "parrying dagger" used in western martial arts. It was long, narrow, and held with the flat of the blade outward. While my knowledge is not complete when it comes to WMAs, I get the impression that the dagger had two main functions: defensively to parry strikes, but maybe even more importantly....to discourage the opponent from crashing into close range. I haven't seen the complicated trapping sequences in WMAs that you see in FMAs in the Espada Y Daga phase. So while it may seem easy to crash in on a long range fighter and take it to close range, having that dagger in the check hand makes it a different situation. So when I see all the complicated trap flows with Espada Y Daga methods in FMAs, I still get the impression of a range or phase of training that is getting overemphasized to the neglect of the most straightforward and useful aspect of the method.....working it from long range and using the dagger to help keep things at long range. If you think trading blows with a weapon at close range is a high risk situation according to the law of averages, just think what it would be like if the opponent had a weapon in each hand! Twice as many blows coming, twice the likelihood of something getting in! But again, all those cool flowing drills at middle range with two weapons are very impressive! High yield training?.....maybe not. If you're not looking for the first opportunity to stick the opponent, rather than "chasing hands", then you are missing out on the main purpose of the Espada Y Daga method. It seems that most FMAs emphasize the mid to close range flowing aspect rather than the long range aspect from whence the method originally came. Again, maybe a shift in current training emphasis should be considered. Just some thoughts. :-)

Keith

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Attitude Is Everything!
 
Hi guys:
I thought of another aspect to consider when talking about range & emphasis....whether a weapon is in the check hand. Everyone acknowledges that the Espada Y Daga methods within FMAs came from the Spanish, but I seem to be seeing a different emphasis than what was done in the west. While the method is "daga", most of the time you see it done with the standard single-edge knife. The Spanish method would have used the western "parrying dagger." This had a long, narrow blade and was used with the flat of the blade outward. While I am still researching western methods, what I have seen so far suggests that the dagger had two main purposes...to parry attacks, but maybe more importantly...to keep the opponent from crashing into close range. Its not so easy to take a fight to close range if the point of a dagger is waiting for you! Most of the Espada Y daga training I have seen in the FMAs involves lots of complicated flow & trap drills at mid to close range. I haven't seen that in WMAs. Again, I think this may be an overemphasis in range/training method. All those flow drills with two weapons at mid to close range are fun and look really impressive. But if you aren't looking for the first opportunity to stick the opponent with the dagger, rather than "chasing hands", then you are neglecting the biggest advantage the check hand weapon gives you. In the west, the check hand dagger was used to parry on the inside, discourage the opponent from moving to that side and getting in past the point of the sword, and to deliver a kill shot quickly when the range closed in. If you think trading blows at close range with a weapon is a risky business due to the law of averages, think what it would be like with a weapon in each hand! Twice the number of blows coming, twice the likelihood that something is going to get in! Training lots of espada y daga trap flows at mid & close range just doesn't seem like a high-yield undertaking to me. Again, maybe we should reconsider the emphasis we have given certain things and the range at which they work best.

Keith

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Attitude Is Everything!
 
Sorry for the double post guys. When I submitted the first one it didn't send me back to the thread and show my response like usual. I thought I must have hit the "clear fields" button or done something wrong by mistake. :-) So I retyped it and resubmitted it with the same results. I even closed out the forum, reopened it, and went back to the thread....my response still didn't show up. Now I come back several hours later and both show up! And it won't let me delete the first response because I'm not a "Forum Leader." I'm really not on drugs....really! :-)

Keith

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Attitude Is Everything!
 
Keith,

Your post was so good that I'm glad we all had a chance to read it twice
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.

First off, you are right fighting someone with a blade in each hand makes it much more difficult and dangerous to get in close. That's why I prefer to fight with two blades and carry at least one on each side at all times.

Next, my take on the E y D work is exactly the same as yours. It came from the Spanish, therefore, the daga must surely originally have been a Main Gauche type parrying and thrusting dagger whose purpose was 1. primarily to deflect and bind the opponent's blade, 2. to prevent the opponent from closing with its thrusting ability, and finally 3. to actually stab him if the opportunity presented itself.

What I like about the Doce Pares E y D progressions is that they make sense, they use each weapon to its advantage, and they have not been made complicated just for the sake of complexity. They are true to the tradition of the Medieval Sword and Dagger arts.

Mario

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Gaucho

Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.


 
Actually long and short methods existed before the arrival of the spanish (at least in some regions). Deployment of the short also varies. I agree that western methods use the dagger as primarliy as a parrying devise. You see the old fencing/sword manuals. However, from what I've seen FMA use the short as much to attack as the long (but I guess this would vary from style to style).

I think the reasons are two fold:
1)The length of the long weapon. Filipino swords are shorter. So the gap betwen fighters is much smaller.

2)Stick and dagger training. Espada y Daga is not the same as olisi at baraw. I think that a lot of people confuse them for being the same when some of techniques do not transfer, such as traps and wraps. Stick and dagger training actually enhances your single stick at close range. Alot of people forget to use the alive hand to attack when they are tied up in close range, but by sticking a dagger/knife in there hand they start becoming accustomed to attacking with it. The knife is a visual que.

Just my 2 bits.
 
Bukidnon,

Greetings! You are right that in the FMA E y D work the short blade is used more often to attack- in a smooth flow between it and the sword- than in Western styles.

Oh, BTW, I found out last night that James Keating has apparently just finished a video series on Espada y Daga. It should be available for sale very soon.

I've found his tapes to be informative, with well thought out progressions, and he is a good speaker. So, I am really looking forward to seeing his take on E y D work.

Mario

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Gaucho

Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.


 
Hey Mario!
Do you think he'll do a segment with the Bowie in one hand and a tomahawk in the other? :-)

Keith

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Attitude Is Everything!
 
Student,

You've been holding out on me! You never told me that you have three functional hands too! I thought that I was the only one.

Anyhow, let me tell you guys that the sjambok is wicked easy if you have any stick skills. The flows translate beautifully. I felt comfortable with the sjambok the very first time I picked it up. It is much easier to gain confidence with than a traditional whip. And MAN! does it pack a whallop! My heavy bag was screaming for mercy. A blade in one hand and a sjambok in the other would make one hell of a formidable combo.

The tomahawk has potential. It certainly works well in combo with a blade against my training dummy. But I still haven't had a chance to spar with it, so we'll see.

Mario

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Gaucho

Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.


 
Then there's my personal favorite ... Espada y .45
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Seriously though ... I've started working on doble daga and there seem to be subtle differences in range when you use both in saber/hammer grip and when you hold one in saber/hammer grip and the other in reverse grip.

I'm developing a real like for the mixed grips btw. I like having my strong/forward side knife in hammer grip and my "live hand" side in reverse grip. It seems that this combination offers a lot more possibilities than having both in one grip. On one hand you have the advantage of longer range, snap cuts, etc while on the other hand you the raw power of the reverse thrust, some nice hooking traps.
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I haven't sparred full contact with it yet, but I will once I have a little more time to get acclimated to it.
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Dave.

[This message has been edited by Dave Fulton (edited 03-13-2000).]
 
Dave,

Great post! No question that there are range differences and use differences when you have one knife in forward and one in reverse grip Vs. both in forward grip or both in reverse.

How do you like to hold the reverse grip blade- edge in to hook and cut at the same time, or edge out to control and then attack the face, neck, or body? Which side do you lead with- the reverse grip side or the forward grip side?

Lately, I been favoring starting with the reverse grip- edge in- in my L(strong)hand, in a L hand lead- but not as defined of a lead as with single knife, of course. This way, I can use my strong hand in reverse grip to catch, control, and cut the opponent, while my R(weak)hand looks for opportunities to slash, backcut and thrust in forward grip. I like to switch which side leads and which hand is in forward or reverse grip during the course of the fight to give the opponent different looks, so he never knows what to anticipate- which side the long thrust is going to come from.

Another little trick is, once you've hooked/cut his knife hand with your edge-in reverse grip, to disengage and simply roll the handle in your hand so that the edge is now facing out and slash him across the throat or abdomen in an almost continuous flow. That reversal from edge in to edge out and back can be done very quickly and securely while moving in realtime and it gives you even more offensive options. Of course, you can, as you said, simply follow up with a reverse grip thrust to the supraclavicular triangle or chest.

Oh, and don't forget that if you have a proper bowie in your forward grip hand, you can take chunks out of your opponent with backcuts! They work into the flow very very well.

Isn't double knife wicked fun?!

Mario

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Gaucho

Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.


 
Hey Guys,

Wahhh, I wanna third hand thingy too! How do I go about getting one? What's the cheapest place to get a decent one? Or is it best to grow on your own?
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The scene:
A hospital operating theater.

In comes Dr. Mario Gaucho, assisted by (soon to be Dr.) Keith Myers and an anesthesiologist, to perform a third hand transplant/graft.

The doctors are scrubbed, masked, gloved. Nurse Barnas hands Dr. G. a Hossom sword in his left and a Hell's Belle in his right.

Dr. Myers is more conventional, with two scalpels...in reverse grip.

The anesthsiologist's mask slips, revealing Dr. V. Gerbil.

The patient faints. They begin....

student

[This message has been edited by student (edited 03-14-2000).]
 
And Dr. Myers is standing on a tall stool so that he can operate from long range. :-)

Keith

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Attitude Is Everything!
 
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