Ranking of Steels in Categories based on Edge Retention cutting 5/8" rope

[Ankerson]

That makes sense. Some of the discussion that I read revolved around 3V and the loss of some toughness and corrosion resistance at the higher temps.

Depends on how far left you go on the scale, you can balance it out and still get the target hardness.

But yes at the higher RC ranges (62) you will lose some corrosion resistance as more Chromium is pulled into the matrix to develop carbides.

Something to play with.

 

[waterstoneblades]

The maker has to decide what the knife will be used for and what heat treat works best. IMO

 

[bluesmandan]

Have you done a standard 10series steel like 1060, 1080, or 1095? I see 5160 up there...

 

[Ankerson]

Have you done a standard 10series steel like 1060, 1080, or 1095? I see 5160 up there...

Not in the coarse edge section, but they die a very fast death in this type of testing in comparison.

Not sure what you are expecting to happen.

 

[bluesmandan]

Not expecting anything, just wondering. Well, actually, I'd expect them to do poorly, but I was wondering how they compared to some of the other steels that don't do too well. Don't worry about it; I was just wondering, and your reply of "fast death" is good enough. Thanks.

 

[Ankerson]

Not expecting anything, just wondering. Well, actually, I'd expect them to do poorly, but I was wondering how they compared to some of the other steels that don't do too well. Don't worry about it; I was just wondering, and your reply of "fast death" is good enough. Thanks.

The only things that could help them would be very thin geometry and very high hardness levels providing the edges held up to the testing.

Things we don't typically see in other than custom knives.

 

[calc]

Not expecting anything, just wondering. Well, actually, I'd expect them to do poorly, but I was wondering how they compared to some of the other steels that don't do too well. Don't worry about it; I was just wondering, and your reply of "fast death" is good enough. Thanks.

1095 would do better with a polished edge and push cuts. Low alloy steel like that tend to make good bushcraft knives for that reason, not to mention the ease of sharpening.

 

[sodak]

I find this ease of sharpening to be a myth. I have a much harder time sharpening a floppy burr off a soft low alloy steel than sharpening a properly hardened knife in any steel, high or low alloy. This also assumes good geometry.

There seems to be a false dilemma of low alloy = easy sharpening, high alloy = hard sharpening. There are a lot more variables to consider, such as geometry and hardness. In the past, steel was either stainless or not, and generalizations were made based solely on that. Those no longer hold up either, as we have many steels with varying degrees of stain resistance, toughness, edge holding, etc.

 

[calc]

I find this ease of sharpening to be a myth. I have a much harder time sharpening a floppy burr off a soft low alloy steel than sharpening a properly hardened knife in any steel, high or low alloy. This also assumes good geometry.

I agree to some extent. This is why M4 is a joy to sharpen, since it doesn't readily form a burr (in my experience at least, with diamond hones).

But the opposite side isn't necessarily a myth, it just means a different technique needs to be used. Lighter pressure and more frequent flipping takes care of the burr problem for me since I just try not to form a heavy one in the first place. The only steel I've actually had trouble with in that regard is H1, and even then it took minimal effort to fix.

What I'm talking about is sharpening in the field - which is why I mentioned it specifically concerning bushcraft knives - because it's not very fun to sharpen a high carbide steel when you're not in the comfort of your own home. With something in 1095, a few swipes on just about any abrasive and you're back in business.

Everybody has their own opinions on it, but this has held true for me. Sharpening difficulty is often just a matter of perspective.

 

[Ankerson]

What I'm talking about is sharpening in the field - which is why I mentioned it specifically concerning bushcraft knives - because it's not very fun to sharpen a high carbide steel when you're not in the comfort of your own home. With something in 1095, a few swipes on just about any abrasive and you're back in business.

I can do the same thing with steels like S110V, 10V, S90V etc, just a few quick passes and done and that's using very simple typical tools.

Also with those types of steels the need to touch up is much less frequent.

And that's not an opinion, that's actually what goes on.

 

[calc]

I can do the same thing with steels like S110V, 10V, S90V etc, just a few quick passes and done and that's using very simple typical tools.

Also with those types of steels the need to touch up is much less frequent.

Sure, as long as you stay on top of it it only takes a few swipes on a ceramic rod to restore an edge. But I really don't believe that sharpening 1095 and the like isn't easier than the steels you listed. Grindability isn't the only factor to consider when sharpening, but all other factors the same, an easy to grind steel (a common quality among low alloy steels) will be easier to sharpen than a hard to grind steel. If it's not easier, then the technique needs to be changed.

And that's not an opinion, that's actually what goes on.

I'm not calling into question anybody's statements regarding the steels themselves.

Rather, I'm saying that it's a matter of opinion as to the manner in which they sharpen and how often. Some people don't mind sharpening a knife often as long as it's easy. And there are plenty of people that prefer the opposite. That is in fact an opinion, as it's a personal preference. Myself, I see the merit in both depending on the scenario. Others may hold a different opinion than I, but it's just that - an opinion.

 

[Fancier]

There are folks out there that like to see how primitive they can be, and would rather use a rock than a ceramic rod to sharpen their low tech knife.

 

[bluesmandan]

In agreement with Ankerson's last post:

AMEN! That's why I switched from carrying cheapo pocket knives in softer steels to more expensive supersteel types. My EDC is a Benchmade in S90V I just lightly touch up now and then with a few passes on a ceramic rod or waterstone. But my cheaper knives I used to carry would have to be outright sharpened every few days. There's a big difference between sharpening a dull blade and honing to restore a slightly imperfect edge. The harder steels definitely take a lot of work to put the original edge on them, but are much easier to maintain from day to day. The problem is when people DON'T maintain the edge, and let it get flattened beyond the point of merely reforming the edge... then they have to full on sharpen it and remove steel instead of just straightening the bevel that has been malformed from use. Removing steel is time consuming with the wear resistant supersteels, or even a real HARD older steel. (When I was doing knife sharpening at gun&knife shows, I had a love/hate relationship with old Case knives! The old guys would bring 'em in dull as a butterknife handle, and I had to make 'em like a razor... you're in for a little time on them suckers. Some of them were really hardened.)

 

[Ankerson]

Sure, as long as you stay on top of it it only takes a few swipes on a ceramic rod to restore an edge. But I really don't believe that sharpening 1095 and the like isn't easier than the steels you listed. Grindability isn't the only factor to consider when sharpening, but all other factors the same, an easy to grind steel (a common quality among low alloy steels) will be easier to sharpen than a hard to grind steel. If it's not easier, then the technique needs to be changed.



I'm not calling into question anybody's statements regarding the steels themselves.

Rather, I'm saying that it's a matter of opinion as to the manner in which they sharpen and how often. Some people don't mind sharpening a knife often as long as it's easy. And there are plenty of people that prefer the opposite. That is in fact an opinion, as it's a personal preference. Myself, I see the merit in both depending on the scenario. Others may hold a different opinion than I, but it's just that - an opinion.

Really simple, the edge starts to lose bite and a few passes and done, easy, simple and quick.

Same as for any other steel, not really any different other than the time between those touch ups would be much greater.

 

[Ankerson]

There are folks out there that like to see how primitive they can be, and would rather use a rock than a ceramic rod to sharpen their low tech knife.

Some of us like me grew up using those types of knives etc, and over time moved away from them for various reasons.

 

[sodak]

CALC,

Perhaps what I should say is this - yes, all things being equal, removing metal will be faster on a low alloy steel. For me, sharpening takes longer because I hate chasing the $%#$ burr, and I'm not very good at it. Consider this: For a high allow/high wear resistant steel, they are generally thinner at the edge, so there's less metal to remove, and if you use diamond sharpeners, they will chew through any steel very quickly, the difference is not much, and could be negated by a thinner grind. I'm not trying to argue with you here, I think I'm not being clear enough in my posts, sorry.

90%+ of my sharpening is done freehand on DMT diafolds, either sitting or standing. That's also what I take into the woods, so sharpening for me is the same either way. I tried a rock once on either 1095 or 420HC, never again. That's a hassle, IMO, and I'm nowhere near steady enough to do that.

If you have a knife in high alloy steel that's as thick at the edge as a knife in a low alloy steel, then the best thing to do is sell the knife and find a maker who understands the steel they are using, no joke. It's like having a Ferrari with a 55 mph governor on it. Probably the worst design I could think of would be a zero edge scandi grind (no microbevel) in an A11 class steel. I could only imagine how long it would take to remove all that metal...

 

[calc]

Perhaps what I should say is this - yes, all things being equal, removing metal will be faster on a low alloy steel. For me, sharpening takes longer because I hate chasing the $%#$ burr, and I'm not very good at it. Consider this: For a high allow/high wear resistant steel, they are generally thinner at the edge, so there's less metal to remove, and if you use diamond sharpeners, they will chew through any steel very quickly, the difference is not much, and could be negated by a thinner grind. I'm not trying to argue with you here, I think I'm not being clear enough in my posts, sorry.

Of course, I just wanted to make sure I was being clear. I have no argument with what you're saying.

90%+ of my sharpening is done freehand on DMT diafolds, either sitting or standing. That's also what I take into the woods, so sharpening for me is the same either way.

Yeah, they're great for hiking and camping. When I'm at home I use a clamp to secure it to a table with some newspaper underneath it to create a makeshift benchstone.

If you have a knife in high alloy steel that's as thick at the edge as a knife in a low alloy steel, then the best thing to do is sell the knife and find a maker who understands the steel they are using, no joke. It's like having a Ferrari with a 55 mph governor on it. Probably the worst design I could think of would be a zero edge scandi grind (no microbevel) in an A11 class steel. I could only imagine how long it would take to remove all that metal...

Even just thinking about that gives me a headache...

 

[chiral.grolim]

If you have a knife in high alloy steel that's as thick at the edge as a knife in a low alloy steel, then the best thing to do is sell the knife and find a maker who understands the steel they are using, no joke. It's like having a Ferrari with a 55 mph governor on it. Probably the worst design I could think of would be a zero edge scandi grind (no microbevel) in an A11 class steel. I could only imagine how long it would take to remove all that metal...

Well... the Opinel#8s Jim tested were ~0.012" after sharpening and the high-wear blades of the Spyderco Military and Manix2 are what, 0.030"? And yet the results. By beefing up those high-wear blades, the maker killed much of the edge-retention and cutting-efficiency BUT he increased the durability against other stresses. I'd compare it to a Ferrari that isn't limited in such a way but instead is weighted-down with safety equipment like a super-duty roll-cage, etc. Some users ask for high-wear but also high toughness and also high corrosion-resistance. CPM-3V can be HT'd for higher toughness and decent corrosion-resistance or higher wear but lower corrosion-resistance. Other steels might provide higher wear and corrosion resistance but less toughness so they need a thicker geometry... Just some thoughts.


As to the Scandi, if the primary is thin enough then it wouldn't be so bad adding a convex or micro-bevel to the apex... of course then it isn't really a "Scandi" anymore

 

[marthinus]

What I'm talking about is sharpening in the field - which is why I mentioned it specifically concerning bushcraft knives - because it's not very fun to sharpen a high carbide steel when you're not in the comfort of your own home. With something in 1095, a few swipes on just about any abrasive and you're back in business.

I think calc you are referring to removing a lot of steel if there was large edge damage in the field a lower alloy steel would be preferable? Not just mere touchups.

A while back I was cleaning brush and hit a piece of fence wire with my machete (1055, 2mm thick and I reground it).

Light damage yes but it was easily removable with a steel file and I completely reshaped the edge. Not just a micro bevel. Any damage above this to a higher alloy steel with limited tools I would not want to try and reshape the edge. Maybe it is because I have been in some very remote parts in Africa and have seen how some people use their sharpened tools but heck, it can make the hair on the back of your neck stand up seeing some of the things they do. They require toughness and ease of sharpening above all else.

 

[calc]

I think calc you are referring to removing a lot of steel if there was large edge damage in the field a lower alloy steel would be preferable? Not just mere touchups. Light damage yes but it was easily removable with a steel file and I completely reshaped the edge. Not just a micro bevel. Any damage above this to a higher alloy steel with limited tools I would not want to try and reshape the edge.

This is the type of sharpening I was talking about, yes. Not just basic edge abrasion during controlled cutting.

I would not want to try and reshape the edge. Maybe it is because I have been in some very remote parts in Africa and have seen how some people use their sharpened tools but heck, it can make the hair on the back of your neck stand up seeing some of the things they do. They require toughness and ease of sharpening above all else.

And that's exactly what I'm getting at. Not everybody has state-of-the-art equipment available.