Ranking stainless steels

Say, I had an idea about this. Instead of calling it a stainless steel ranking, I might instead call it a "blade steels for folders" ranking. That would let me put in some non-stainless steels that are currently being used for folders -- M-2 and D-2, say. I'll add in other non-stainless steels as I run across them in foldres. This will also help me avoid the problem of non-stainless steels operating across such a wide hardness range: for folders, I espect the range for even non-stainless steels to be rather narrow, tending towards 60 Rc plus or minus a couple of Rc. I'm comfortable making generalizations about what to expect from M-2 and D-2 for folders.

Joe
 
Originally posted by Greg Jones
This is an excellent thread indeed! I am wondering why there is no mention of the 14-4 CrMo steel that Microtech is now using. Is it so similar to ATS-34/154CM that it is not worth mentioning or??
Click to expand...

Microtech seems to be the only production house using 14-4 CrMo from Timken Latrobe. This is clearly Timken's version (a copy) of 154CM (the original, from Crucible) and ATS-34 (a Hitachi steel).

See these threads for a bit more info:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=194977&highlight=microtech+144

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=193238&highlight=microtech+144
 
Quote: "440V is turning out to be a pest, ruining my nice clean groupings "
Maybe you could put the powdered metal steels in their own catagory.
BTW, I thought of adding knife maker's (both factory and custom)comments, because they have worked with various steels, heat treats and have tested their knives, this gives them practical knowledge that is not found in a steel chart. It is also important to know why they chose the steel(s) they use, there is no absolute best steel, but some are better for some uses, this kind of information would be of help to both a noob and more experienced knifeknuts.
Also, I would not put AUS6 with 420J2, it is more a kin to 440A.
I would also put ATS55 (and probably GIN2) in the next group for edge holding.
 
Joe,
Serg's groupings make sense too, although I find his grouping of VG-10 odd I really like that stuff
Click to expand...
I like this stuff a lot too :)
Putting it among reasonable steels I would like to say it is well balanced. In another words, its all properties are not subordinated to single one like edge hold in case of ATS-34.

Wow, it is hard job trying to simplify such matters, especially explaining them in foreign language :)
 
Owen, thanks for pointing those out, I'd like to get some views on those charts.

The reason I haven't asked Crucible if I could quote those (with credit) in the FAQs, is because I'm not sure exactly how the steels are being compared. Let me give an example: the charts claim that 52100 is exactly as wear resistant as O-1 and less wear resistant than A-2. When it comes to cutlery, do you think that holds? I'm sure the Crucible charts were carefully measured, and are true under certain circumstances -- but I don't think that those circumstances necessarily hold all the time when it comes to these steels' use in knives.
 
Joe,
I believe that your caution on this point is wise. I seem to remember a reference to the information of the various manufacturer's data sheets not necessarily being valid for the applications used by knife makers. I think that the thread was one of the last two or three extensive threads in the Knife Reviews and Testing Forum on the subject of S30V and had much input from some of the knife makers that frequently contribute in that forum.
 
It's like the old car wars!You know ,Chevy verses Ford verses Dodge.
We all know what we like to drive and why.Not so with knife steels,comparing steels for knifes we must educate the consumer to the properties of steel as they pertain to knifes.
1.If edge holding were the only criteria we would all use ceramic or pure carbide blades.
2.For sharpnes Obsidian or glass.
3.For toughness (ductility) gold,silver or copper.
Of course these extremes are over simplified but do cover the relevant properties of knife steel.
The first two examples illistrate what happens to a high carbon
steel wether stainless or not when hardend to the extreme(to get high edge holding and sharpness).The third shows a soft condition from a low rockwell number(soft).The blade would bend rather then break.
You know the casual knife person is not going to pay ten times as much for a custom knife as a Wally World special with out knowing something about what they'er getting into, so they can explain to frinds and family why they did it,and can justify it with logic.So it is up to us knife makers to come up with an honest and understandable guide to knife steels and there strengths and uses,To explain why that hatchet steel may not be the best for a skining knife.
Like a truck is better for hauling bricks than a sports car.
Sounds easy dose'nt it,now factor in the wifes and friends who are in the market for a gift,sure they have herd of Buck or Gerber knifes or seen Rambo but what do they really know about knifes?let alone a hand made one of a kind knife?
To this day no one has come up with system to rate knife steel not even the prestigious master blade smith societies across the word.And can we blame any one?Well in a word yes.We have to start somewhere and a bar graph showing a balance of the four befor mentioned properties(including hardness)for a steel would be easy to update as new steels hit the market.And show in an easy format how steels compare in regards to overall performance.And why one would work for one thing and not another.Manufactuers claims are just that and would need to be verified buy an independent source.As far as quantifiable tests all but one is easily verified buy lab testing.
That brings us to edge holding.No one likes to sharpen knifes after EVERY use!But how do you judge edge holding?
If your primary use is cutting ropes,then how many ropes the edge cuts is important.If you skin deer then how much hide and hair you can cut on one sharpening is most important.Paper?How much presure is dull?You get the idea don't you?We need some consistancy,
some standerds!And save testing every blade under every condition
we should adopt a system like consumer reports and rate knifes under one standerd from 1 to 5 in the catagories of Corrosion Resistance
Ease of sharpening,Edge holding and Toughness.But not necissarily in
that order.And most importantly make this info easaly available to
the public.
Thanks to those who read this
Arlee Niemi
 
great thread Joe, and presented in an easily digestible manner.

I would rate AUS6 (or 6A for short) above the 420's for a blade steel. 420J2 is an excellent accessory steel. In the annealed state, it is like butter, easily machined or shaped, etc. It gets hard enough to make a blade (low to mid 50's), but our tests indicate that it is quite brittle at those Rc's. At Spyderco, we use 420J2 for locks and SS handles, but we would never make a blade out of it. AUS6 is about as low as we would go for a blade material.

Also, Abrasive resistant tests done by most steel mfrs are done with abrasives, then measured. For knives, a CATRA or similar testing device is more concentrated on the edge and often is more accurate. Since we have a CATRA tester at Spyderco, we work with Crucible to get additional evaluation of abrasive resistance on their new steels.

We also found that toughness was more important in serrated edges than we originally thought, because a serrated tooth must stand alone and doesn't have the support of the neighboring steel along the edge.

sal
 
Hi Serg,

I would support your comments about rust resistance of the ATS-55 steel (your Delica in the salty water environment in Croatia). As a matter of fact, I used to swim and dive with the Delica (ATS-55) last summer in Croatia (I was born at the Croatian coast, middle Dalmatia) and after cleaning with fresh water - no sign of rust. This summer I plan to do the same with the Delica in VG-10.
I hope you and your family had a nice vacation in Croatia.
Best regards,

Franco

P.S. What I would like to have is a Delica in MBS-26 steel, especially for salty environment.
 
Rust is a funny thing. One guy will claim he took his knife made from a certain steel, soaked it in salt water, and no rust. Another guy uses Tuf Cloth on his and never gets it wet, and his rusts. Weird. I have a buddy who has a Randall made from O-1 -- he claims to never have oiled it, and stored it in his sheath. He showed it to me, no rust, not a speck. Nevertheless, for most of us, O-1 will rust like a fiend.

There are too many stories of ATS-55 rusting quickly for me to ignore. In fact, my wife lost her old Gin-1 pink delica, and newer ATS-55 pink delica, at the bottom of a box for a while. Gin-1 delica came out fine, I had to remove a bunch of rust from the ATS-55 version. Not a scientific comparison, but illustrative nonetheless.

Theory-wise, it makes sense as well, right? In ATS-34, some of the moly forms carbides, leaving free chromium to provide rust protection. In ATS-55, the moly isn't there, so the chromium forms the carbides, leaving less free chromium. Theory doesn't always bear out in practice, but in this case, I think it might.

Joe
 
Hi,Joe Talmadge.
Your consideration is very atractive.
Hitachi has been thinking how to become close between theory and practical use from acient time of samurai period in Japan.
Conbination between rational thinking and practical phenomina
is very important.
Main metallurgist cant understand such a phemomina,because many metallurgist consideration is controlled under Nation".But it is mothe nation with proveb "Steel is re important to understand feeling way of makin or using in practical suitation.And also power of binding between feeling and theory is most important.
 
Hi everyone.
I have finish evaluation of 154CM.
154CM of microstructe was strongly segregated.
So corrosion resistance of 154CM is inferior to ATS34.
Please check if such a quailty is level of problems.
 
Excellent thread gentlemen. I would agree wholeheartedly with the general findings. The one thing I would like to see is what sort of heat treat manufacturers and makers actually use. As has been said before, the heat treat is more important than the steel. In my tooling experience, I have found that (depending on the steel) what sort of furnace is used, number of tempers and whether the steel is cryo quenched (if applicable) all make a significant difference if empirical testing is done. On the lighter side I would add that in daily use, I find little difference in the various steels and heat treats used by the manufacturers of better quality knives. The only exception to this is a Randall make from 0-1 and a straight knife that I have, made from CPM10-V. These knives hold an edge significantly better than any other knife I own. All of the other knives I have used for daily chores seem to need attention with a steel after two to three days of use. These include blades made from D-2, 440C, ATS-34, 154CM and A-2.
 
Excellent comments.
Heat treatment is important as compared with steel selection.
But as for segregation of such a steel,carbide distribution can not be changed by common heat treatment.
 
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