Rare Earth Magnets in Folders

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May 28, 2008
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135
So I've been thinking about locking mechanisms in folding blades and I can't remember ever seeing one use a rare earth magnet to lock the blade closed or open. Is there a reason that doesn't work, or do people just not do it?

Seems like it could be done in a way that would allow for a decent lock, better than a slip joint at least.

The only problem I can see is the issue that if the magnet is strong enough to hold the blade open or shut well, it would also be hard to move it from either of those positions. I'm sure there's a way to deal with that, but I'll have to think about it for a bit.

Any thoughts?
 
There really is no way to deal with it, magnets do not turn off and there is nothing currently that can block a magnets force, it can only be re-routed. On a knife there is not a lot of room for re-routing. Rare earth magnets are strong but no where near what a steel lock is. I would be interested in seeing it if you pull it off.

Here is an article on why magnets cannot be blocked.
http://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae512.cfm
 
Wasn't really meaning for it to out do a steel lock, but more be an easy alternative to something like a slip joint, which also doesn't truly lock.

Blocking the magnet isn't necessary at all, just find a way to exploit the fact that a magnet doesn't hold up well to a shear force and the fact that the force of the magnet on the metal decreases greatly with distance. So you could wedge something between them (not practical I don't think, but other uses of that concept might work), then you could pretty easily move the blade.

I should say not necessary unless you keep your knife near credit cards or electronics.
 
We have a folder made by Kelly Carlson that uses a magnet to hold the blade open and closed. It works very well.

If I remember correctly Kelly got the magnetic folder mechanism patented.
 
It has been done. . . one that comes to mind is the Spyderco T-Mag. As you said, this was more like a slip joint than a proper lock.

It seems like I have seen others but that is the only one I can say for sure.
 
So I've been thinking about locking mechanisms in folding blades and I can't remember ever seeing one use a rare earth magnet to lock the blade closed or open. Is there a reason that doesn't work, or do people just not do it?

Seems like it could be done in a way that would allow for a decent lock, better than a slip joint at least.

The only problem I can see is the issue that if the magnet is strong enough to hold the blade open or shut well, it would also be hard to move it from either of those positions. I'm sure there's a way to deal with that, but I'll have to think about it for a bit.

Any thoughts?


The Spyderco T-Mag uses a rare earth magnet as the "lock" mechanism.


/dusty
 
Ah, I didn't know about the T-Mag. I figure a one sided blade with a magnet "lock" would work pretty easily, I'm not sure how it could be adapted to two sided blades though.

I also didn't think about the market that the T-Mag was developed for, although that makes sense.
 
Instead of using a strong magnet to act as the lock why not use a more manageable ie weaker magnet to move the locking mechanism in place or out of place.
 
If you made the magnet slide across a surface on a blade, you could slide it on and off of the blade pretty easily. Although, using a magnet as a lock, you would magnetize your blade, which would be a problem working near metal.
 
I wouldn't like a magnetic knife for two reasons:
1) other metal things in my pocket could stick to it, being clumpsy and possebly scratch the knife
2) The blade could get magnetis as well, making the small pieces of steel being removed, sharpening the blade, stick, and make sharpening harder
 
I'm with Bart, magnets don't belong in or on knives. I work with small tools all day long, and the least bit of magnetism can be a huge problem.

A while back, I pried a pair of rare earth magnets out of a hard drive with my EDC. It magnetized the blade a lot. I had to demagnetize the knife to make it quit attracting everything it got near.
 
I can see it now, I reach into my pocket for my handy folder, pull it open and the blade is covered with grinding dust, sorry probably not for me.

thanks for thinking out of the box, there may be some advantage of using a magnet keep working, but probably not for me.
 
I'm with Bart, magnets don't belong in or on knives. I work with small tools all day long, and the least bit of magnetism can be a huge problem.

Saying that they don't belong in or on knives is a bit too generalized and close-minded for my tastes. Now saying you don't believe they belong in or on knives is another thing entirely.

Not everyone works with small tools and not everyone grinds metals frequently. As a matter of fact, I'd probably say that those two categories of people are an extreme minority of all people.

Dust from sharpening might not actually be a problem, especially if you use some kind of lubricant. The viscosity of any liquid would likely be enough to keep all but the absolute closest pieces of dust from being pulled to the magnet.

Anyways, they've been used as a method for bypassing legal issues with locking blades, and it's not like every option for them has been explored.
I believe there's a way to make them work well in folding blades, but whether they're worth the trouble is what I don't know.

Undoubtably they won't be for everyone, but that's the case with every blade type and locking mechanism. Not everyone likes lock-backs, not everyone likes slip joints, and not everyone likes liner-locks.
 
First, don't take this as an attack, I'm just pointing out some things.

In your 22years of life and perhaps 6 years of machine shop and knife making time, I am sure you have gained a lot of experience with magnetic properties and such. Those who have a bit more time on this subject will tend to disagree with you about dust and magnets, though.

Also, I said "I'm with Bart....." , and he said, "I wouldn't like a magnetic knife because...."

Now, for a college level experiment;
Place a rare earth magnet in your pocket every day for a week. Don't clean it off for that whole week. At the end of the week see what is on it. Also, how often did you take out your keys or other object and find the magnet attached?

The pivot on a folder has to be absolutely smooth and clean to keep operating properly. The super fine magnetic particles attracted the the knife would likely make the open/close smoothness go downhill very quickly.

As far as justifying the argument that magnets on folders are a good idea because some commercial maker uses magnetic locks, it could be thus argued that since there are many times more $50-$100 katana made from cheap stainless steel than there are $5000+ katana made by the traditional methods and materials, that the nihonto smiths are wrong when they say, "Stainless steel should not be used on a katana blade."
 
First, don't take this as an attack, I'm just pointing out some things.

In your 22years of life and perhaps 6 years of machine shop and knife making time, I am sure you have gained a lot of experience with magnetic properties and such. Those who have a bit more time on this subject will tend to disagree with you about dust and magnets, though.

Also, I said "I'm with Bart....." , and he said, "I wouldn't like a magnetic knife because...."

Now, for a college level experiment;
Place a rare earth magnet in your pocket every day for a week. Don't clean it off for that whole week. At the end of the week see what is on it. Also, how often did you take out your keys or other object and find the magnet attached?

The pivot on a folder has to be absolutely smooth and clean to keep operating properly. The super fine magnetic particles attracted the the knife would likely make the open/close smoothness go downhill very quickly.

As far as justifying the argument that magnets on folders are a good idea because some commercial maker uses magnetic locks, it could be thus argued that since there are many times more $50-$100 katana made from cheap stainless steel than there are $5000+ katana made by the traditional methods and materials, that the nihonto smiths are wrong when they say, "Stainless steel should not be used on a katana blade."

I did not justify magnets in folders by saying someone did it, I justified it by giving their reason. I agree that just because someone has does it doesn't mean it's a good idea, which is why I didn't argue that. However the point I actually made still stands.

When you said you were with Bart, you neglected to say who Bart was. Regardless, you stated an absolute "magnets don't belong in or on knives." It's the absolute I take issue with.

Now you picked the wrong "experiment" to use as emphasis for your point, which was just bad luck on your part. In my senior year in high school I was into cigars and so I carried a cigar punch on my keychain. I also was into 40k and wanted to make interchangeable parts on some of my figures, so I bought a bunch of neodymium magnets. I thought it might be cool to carry one around and see what uses I could come up with. So what I did was I put a cylindrical magnet in the cigar punch, with the punch extended, which covered the sides of the magnet.

I carried this for years, until the punch's edges chipped away and I lost the magnet somewhere. Not once did any of my electronics get screwed up, nor my credit card or other magnetic cards. Yea it got stuck to some things, but nothing that was aggravating. Plus it was pretty cool being able to hang my keys underneath my car from the magnet if I decided I didn't want to carry my keys with me.

Bear in mind this was before I did any knife or machine stuff (I've only been doing this for a little over 2 years, and that was while taking classes), but I'm not sure that a knifemaker's intended consumer should be other knifemakers.

As for the pivot, the magnet wouldn't need to be near the pivot to keep the blade in place. As a matter of fact, if it was nearer to the pivot then it would impart a lesser moment on the blade and thus make it less effective at keeping the blade in place. If the magnet was pulling dust towards it, do you really think it would get caught in the pivot instead of the magnet itself?

Finally, why did you call out how old I was? I know how old I am, and if you've read my profile you know how old I am. So you must be either trying to point out that I'm younger than you or you're trying to discredit my point in the eyes of others by insinuating that I'm young and thus wrong. Furthermore, if you read my profile you know what college I go to and should know that implying your experiment was college level is an insult at best. In light of that, I'm not sure how I can take your post as anything but an attack.
 
I know for a fact that rare earth magnets are used in the valves that fire the retro rockets on satellites, because I know a guy who builds them for a living. Very dependable. They actually work by turning one of 2 magnets. When aligned closed when opposed it opens. Must work flawlessly for thousands of cycles under close tolerances. No need for a valve stem and even the tiniest leak shortens the life of the satellite because of volume of compressed gas is limited. I would think if you really wanted to you could make a reliable lock with them. But, it would not be that easy. Also, I think there are some health issues to be careful about when machining these magnets.

I think many of us are so used to being around metal dust and small metal parts we assume it is a factor for everyone. Lets not get any bad feelings about this stuff.

It really wasn't all that long ago that everyone who was anyone believed that you could never make a good knife out of stainless. I remember how my dad knocked it and plastics. Now, they are common on high quality knives. People should experiment and try things. Good luck. Jim
 
Ralph Turnbull has made knives with rare-earth magnets to hold the blade open/closed for a number of years. ;)
 
No offense, Stacy, but good riposte, Destraal. You both have good points. Shall we adjourn for a cigar?
 
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