Rare vs. valuable

Joss

Joss

Joined
Nov 20, 2001
Messages
7,353
The other thread I started made me think of that. In the universe of "high worth" knives (for lack of a better way to group knives), it is interesting to think about makers that are popular and whose ware is valuable. Doing that little exercize, I find it interesting to realize that Morans and Lovelesses, for example, are widely available, whereas markers like Steinau and Hirayama are unavailable at any price (I have seen 3 instance of an Hirayama knife coming up for sale since I started using the net to look at dealers, totaling 4 knives).

I'm not sure whether there's a point to be made here, it's just kind of interesting to think about it this way.
 
Joss said:
The other thread I started made me think of that. In the universe of "high worth" knives (for lack of a better way to group knives), it is interesting to think about makers that are popular and whose ware is valuable. Doing that little exercise, I find it interesting to realize that Morans and Lovelesses, for example, are widely available, whereas markers like Steinau and Hirayama are unavailable at any price (I have seen 3 instance of an Hirayama knife coming up for sale since I started using the net to look at dealers, totaling 4 knives).

I'm not sure whether there's a point to be made here, it's just kind of interesting to think about it this way.
Click to expand...

I agree Joss, as Loveless knives are certainly not rare these days. As of a couple weeks ago there were about 30 available for sale just on the dealer sites I track from plain hunters to $$$ big bears and most everything in between. Probably even more now considering the Chicago auction. However, no doubt most offerings and descriptions start out stating how rare the piece is.

It seems to me that Morans are currently less readily available but still not extremely rare with the exception of some styles.

Custom knives seem to be different in comparison to other collectibles I have been exposed to in that being rare doesn't necessarily make them more valuable.
 
I personally have made one custom knife, so by definition my work is "rare" but certainly not valuable.

Makers like Loveless are kind of a bad example for something like this. A Loveless knife is valuable because it was made in the Loveless shop and carries the Loveless mark, not because there are few of them.

A Steinau knife on the other hand is rare, and it is valuable as well, but probably because they are so few and far between. Simple supply and demand.
 
Joss said:
In the universe of "high worth" knives (for lack of a better way to group knives), it is interesting to think about makers that are popular and whose ware is valuable. Doing that little exercize, I find it interesting to realize that Morans and Lovelesses, for example, are widely available, whereas markers like Steinau and Hirayama are unavailable at any price (I have seen 3 instance of an Hirayama knife coming up for sale since I started using the net to look at dealers, totaling 4 knives).

I'm not sure whether there's a point to be made here, it's just kind of interesting to think about it this way.
Click to expand...


I have been talking about this phenomenon to collector friends of mine for a couple of years. In my case, however it was in reference to custom folders.

The example I've been using is Ray Cover knives. Ray Cover knives could certainly not be considered rare, but when you consider the shear numbers Ray has put out in the past few years and the number of years he's been making knives, they are disproportionally difficult to find. Maybe it's because I buy so many from Ray:D

Seriously though, there are makers who are much more "popular" or "famous" than Ray and a good (and sizable) collection of their work could be quickly assembled by anyone with the cash, while a meaningful collection of Ray's work would be difficult to assemble at any price.

Of course, the obvious here is that there are many more buyers of knives in the Ray Cover price range than there are when you get in the 4 digit range of the more "famous" makers.
 
I'm surprised this topic has not generated more discussion?

Perhaps because rarity does not seem to play as substantial a part in custom knife value as with other collectibles or investment vehicles. :confused:
 
Actually, I believe rarity is more of a factor regarding value when addressing production made collectibles such as collectible cars, motorcycles, stamps, coins etc. rather than hand/custom made collectibles items.
 
Actually, I believe rarity is more of a factor regarding value when addressing production made collectibles such as collectible cars, motorcycles, stamps, coins etc. rather than hand/custom made collectibles items.
Click to expand...

Well, kinda. It first has to be a desireable product. For cars, that means a Cobra or Vette, etc. A rare AMC Gremlin is still a Gremlin. The bigger the market(measure of desireability), the rarer the item=higher value.
 
Even though Loveless has made thousands of knives, he has also made thousands of collectors over the years. One reason your man Fisk is popular is not the sheer quality of his work (very nice indeed), or his rarity (not all that rare compared to many other top tier smiths) but the fact that many collectors and dealers actively seek out his work as it has been shown to be desireable. Over the past 20 years, Jerry has made many collectors in addition to many fine knives and other contributions(ABS, NLT, cutting). There are a few youngsters that to my eye make a nicer knife (Blasphemer!). They have a fraction of the Fisk customer base though and their knives don't garner the same prices or appreciation in the short term. In the long run, who knows if one will become the next Fisk, Hancock, Newton or Fogg. Thats part of the fun!
 
Anthony Lombardo said:
Even though Loveless has made thousands of knives, he has also made thousands of collectors over the years. One reason your man Fisk is popular is not the sheer quality of his work (very nice indeed), or his rarity (not all that rare compared to many other top tier smiths) but the fact that many collectors and dealers actively seek out his work as it has been shown to be desireable. Over the past 20 years, Jerry has made many collectors in addition to many fine knives and other contributions(ABS, NLT, cutting). There are a few youngsters that to my eye make a nicer knife (Blasphemer!). They have a fraction of the Fisk customer base though and their knives don't garner the same prices or appreciation in the short term. In the long run, who knows if one will become the next Fisk, Hancock, Newton or Fogg. Thats part of the fun!
Click to expand...

Two questions as you have made some interesting points:

Please explain what you mean by Loveless and Jerry making collectors?

As you opened the door, who are the few youngsters "to your eye" are making a nicer knife than Jerry?

I agree and have said many times that the quality of the knife produced is only one of the many attributes that places a maker in the top tier of makers.
Just making a great knife is not enough these days.
 
Anthony Lombardo said:
Well, kinda. It first has to be a desireable product. For cars, that means a Cobra or Vette, etc. A rare AMC Gremlin is still a Gremlin. The bigger the market(measure of desireability), the rarer the item=higher value.
Click to expand...

You would be surprised at what cars people value and collect, and yes including Gremlins :eek::confused:
 
In the motorcycle and car collecting fields the vehicles that are in highest demand are usually those that were originally very expensive so fewer were made and therefor are rare. It may just be a Chevy but because it is a Vette it is collectable.

The other criteria is provinance, if the vehicle was a successful racer or owned by someone famous it will command a higher price.

In referance to the knife world, low volume, higher value and maker visibility all add up to knife value. There are some great knives out there made by men who are unknown outside of their immediate circle of friends so the market value of the knife is relatively low. There are some pretty good knives out there made by makers who have worked very hard building a reputation for themselves that are very desirable primarily because more people know of that maker.

By the way building a name is very expensive, not everyone can afford to do it.
 
The other thing that increase value is the type of buyers. For example, the prestige watch makers spend a lot of time and money to surround their products with an aura of exclusivity and prestige. The watch makers are also canny in limiting the numbers of particular watches released below market demand so demand is always way above supply adding to their rareness and ensuring buyers theres always a market for their "investments".

Similarly, the comtemporay art galleries carefully promote their clients to the wealthy and committed buyers with exclusive private shows, limit access to the best and most desirable works and manage exposure to the art media. They attract wealthy and committed buyers who are willing to spend big money, a lot more on new artists compared to the custom knife market and makes high end knives look cheap in comparison.

I would hazard a guess that few knives and makers are promoted to potential buyers in this way and wealthy and committed buyers are not targeted.

The nearest thing I come across in the knife market is the Art Knife Invitational but that only has around 25 makers, a tiny number compared with the numbers of artists promoted by other types of art.
 
This is an interesting thread and the thought that comes to my mind is....any collectible object is only worth what somebody is willing to pay for it. That being said, there are many different types of collectibles, and each type may require a different means required to liquidate that particular object.

For example, if one desired to sell a coin or stamp, there are quides that depict specific retail and dealer values that can be achieved by going to a brick and mortar establishment and conduct your sale.

While some dealers/purveyors may provide a similar option, what you will receive for your collectible knife is only what a dealer or another collector is willing to pay you for it.

A similar scenario exists in the world of custom pool cues. For example, some years ago a guide was published called "The Blue Book of Pool Cues". It is a great guide and offers a wealth of information.

At times when I have been told "the book has this for xxx amount of money", I would then say, "does the book say where to take that item to receive that amount of money"?

Hypothetically speaking, say about 10 or 20 years from now the next generation has little interest in high dollar collectible knives (or any collectible for discussion purposes). How much is that Loveless, or Moran or Fisk actually worth?

Just my thoughts FWIW,
Peter
 
I think it is simply supply and demand. If there is more demand than supply for a particular maker's work, regardless of its rarity, the aftermarket prices will go up. The opposite goes if supply exceeds demand.
 
Kevin has a point, being difficult to approach or deal with can hurt a reputation seriously.

Honest straight dealing will encourage the customer to become a regular customer who might be in the position to put a good word in for you someday.

About two weeks ago I was told that my name was thrown into an article in Outdoor Canada, a quarterly hunting and fishing magazine, which dealt with Craftsmanship in handmade outdoor equipment, decoys, fishing rods, fly reels, hand tied flies and handmade knives. It was quite complimentary mentioning Gaetan Beauchamp, Jacques Jobin, Greg Lightfoot, Brian Tighe and myself in the same breath. I don't think that I have ever met the writer, his name does not ring a bell and he lives in Vancouver, so someone must have put a good word in for me.

Whoever it was I would like to thank them publically.

This is how a maker can improve his visibility through their customers.

By the way Kevin, I do not go out looking to sell to collectors and most of my customers to not consider themselves collectors, just plain folks who like fine knives. Some of them however have an awful lot of knives in their homes and some are even on display in their gun cases.

If more makers went out to the general public instead of chasing the elusive collector market our industry would be much healthier because the general public could turn into collectors if they knew what was going on in this field.
 
George,

I suspect that the collector trait is present in most of us and goes well beyond knives. In fact I'll start a poll on the subject...
 
george tichbourne said:
Kevin has a point, being difficult to approach or deal with can hurt a reputation seriously.

Honest straight dealing will encourage the customer to become a regular customer who might be in the position to put a good word in for you someday.

About two weeks ago I was told that my name was thrown into an article in Outdoor Canada, a quarterly hunting and fishing magazine, which dealt with Craftsmanship in handmade outdoor equipment, decoys, fishing rods, fly reels, hand tied flies and handmade knives. It was quite complimentary mentioning Gaetan Beauchamp, Jacques Jobin, Greg Lightfoot, Brian Tighe and myself in the same breath. I don't think that I have ever met the writer, his name does not ring a bell and he lives in Vancouver, so someone must have put a good word in for me.

Whoever it was I would like to thank them publically.

This is how a maker can improve his visibility through their customers.

By the way Kevin, I do not go out looking to sell to collectors and most of my customers to not consider themselves collectors, just plain folks who like fine knives. Some of them however have an awful lot of knives in their homes and some are even on display in their gun cases.

If more makers went out to the general public instead of chasing the elusive collector market our industry would be much healthier because the general public could turn into collectors if they knew what was going on in this field.
Click to expand...

George, I'm all for makers going out to the general public to find new customers, but believe it takes repeat business for a maker to be successful as there just aren't enough people IMO, other than collectors, willing to pay hundreds of dollars for a knife.
And once they buy more than one knife form you, they are collectors whether they consider themselves that or not.
 
Kevin you would be surprised at how many of the general public will drop $500 plus on a high quality knife.

The other part of the equation though is to treat the customer well and convert that first sale into two, three or more. I very seldom sell just one knife to a customer. Carol and I treat them like the very important people that they are and they do return for additional knives.

The additional knives are used as birthday presents, housewarming gifts and such for relatives and friends.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top