RAT-7 D2 or Ranger RD6?

[Hawk45]

Looking for a approx 6" camper for less than $100 and thinking of these two.. Also looked at Swamp Rat Camp Tramp but just too big..

RD6 6"
RAT-7 6.5"

I have read nothing but good things on the RD series.

Have read some good/bad reviews of the RAT-7 but I think the bad were of the 1095 version. This would be the D2 version.

Price difference is $30 more for the RAT-7

Thanks,
Hawk

 

[Brian6244]

Whats wrong with the 1095? I have been looking at these lately and thought the 1095 might be less likely to chip than the D2. I figured the 1095 might roll a little easier but a roll would be easier to fix than chipping since I wouldnt have to remove metal to fix it. I was thinking of getting this knife for really hard work though. Lots of digging and cutting heavy wire. Would the 1095 not be the best for this? Would the D2 be better?

 

[t1mpani]

I'd opt for 1095 vs. D2 in a blade that size. I think overall Ontario's treatment and consitency with the RAT series has been very good--and if there WERE any issues I don't think counting on a more complicated steel with a harder heat treatment would make me more comfortable. Again, from a quality standpoint I don't think there's anything to worry about. Jeff Randall has assured that any problem that crops up will be dealt with immediately, and I haven't read much about problems recently. And, as has been said, D2's strengths might not serve you as well in this type of blade anyway.

 

[thebladeguy]

If you want a tough camp knife that is also a good slicer then get a RAT-7. I personaly would not get it in D2. If you want a knife that will gladly take anything you throw at it and come back asking for more then get the RD6. I have the RD7 and it so freakin tough I don't know if I could even hurt it.

TBG

 

[knifetester]

What will you be using the knife for?

 

[averageguy]

Can't comment on Ranger knives but I'm pretty sure you'd like a RAT7 and 1095 is fine - I like the looks of the D2.

"Lots of digging and cutting heavy wire"
If this were a primary use for a knife, I'd save up for a Swamp Rat.
And that, is the first time I've ever recommended this knife.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I was thinking of getting this knife for really hard work though. Lots of digging and cutting heavy wire. Would the 1095 not be the best for this? Would the D2 be better?

Depends on how you were doing it. If it is done even slightly aggressively then the 1095 would be a far superior choice as it is less likely to see edge damage in high energy contacts. If done slowly and with precision where there is little impact but mainly abrasive and compressive type contacts the D2 would be more optimal. But in general for that blade size and general class of knife and scope of work, 1095 and similar steels tend to be more suitable.

-Cliff

 

[Hawk45]

Who has the best price on the RAT7? I may just have to get both and be done with it.. RAT7 and RD7

 

[knifetester]

I am a huge Ranger Knies fan. However, for camp work I prefer a thinner balde. I think the 1095 RAT is the better choice here.

Here is a review, reprinted with permission of the author. He can be contacted on USN to verify he gave me permission to reprint.

Part 1

The Ontario Knife Company RAT-7

Background

“Randall’s Adventure & Training is a professional survival training, expedition guiding, and outdoor gear research and design team based in Alabama and conducting operations in Latin America. RAT is the only legal U.S. representative of the Peruvian Air Force school of jungle survival - ESSEL (Escuela de Supervivencia en la Selva), and holds legal documentation and contracts with the Air Force of Peru.” (source RAT website)
The RAT line of knives is a collaboration between Ontario Knife Company and the Randall’s Adventure & Training team. The collaboration between RAT and Ontarion began in 2002, when Ontario introduced the production version of Jeff Randall’s RTAK knife. Designed for jungle use, the RTAK fit between a machete class knife and a large belt knife in size, and quickly gained a reputation as being a premier knife for military jungle operations.
After the success of the RTAK, Ontario and RAT introduced the TAK-1, a 4.25” fixed blade knife. The TAK features a very nice set of canvas micarta grips (in the 1095 version) and a full flat grind for maximum cutting efficiency. The TAK was designed as a utility knife, large enough to handle many field tasks yet small enough to be easily carried. The TAK has proven itself in the field, most notably at the hands of Biologist, Wilderness Skills Guru and Writer, Dr. Terry Trier, whose article on the TAK was published in Tactical Knives magazine.
Fitting nicely between the RTAK and TAK is the RAT-7. Designed as a full size wilderness survival and utility knife, the RAT-7 ideally suited to military personnel deployed in a variety of Areas of Operation. Before production of the RAT-7 began, Jeff Randall sought the input from a cadre of military personnel, law enforcement officers and outdoorsmen. With their input, some minor changes and tweaks were made to perfect the design. From the deserts of Iraq to the jungles of South America, the RAT-7 was designed to be a capable, dependable and high performance cutting tool that a soldier, outdoorsman, or adventurer could depend upon to meet all their cutting needs and bring them home alive.

Having read Jeff Randall's excellent articles in magazines and conversed with him on his disccusion board, I was excited to try this blade out. From my perspective, Jeff Randall and I have many things in common when it comes to what we like in a knife.

Specifications

That RAT-7 features a 7 inch blade and an overall length of 12 inches. The actual cutting edge is 6.5”, with the first ½” of blade being a nicely sized choil. The knife is ground from 3/16” stock with a full flat grind. There are two versions offered, one in 1095 high carbon steel, and the other an upgraded model in D2 Tool Steel. Each of these version is available with a partially serrated edge.

The 1095 model features nicely textured green canvas micarta handle scales and a zinc phosphate finish. The D2 model features rather smooth black linen micarta handle scales, a grey powder-coat finish and the RAT logo nicely etched into the side of the blade.

Both of the steel choices offered are excellent ones. D2 is an almost stainless, air hardening, highly carbided tool steel. It offers excellent edge retention and aggressive cutting performance. The 1095 steel, used for decades to make millions of knives, is a good simple steel. It is tougher than D2, which means it is less likely to chip out under hard use, and is much easier to sharpen, due to being simpler (less carbides) and it is heat treated softer (about 56RC vs about 59Rc for the D2). However, 1095 steel will readily stain and rust if not cared for. The Zinc Phosphate finish does provide some corrosion protection, but as with any coated blade, the most important part of the knife- the cutting edge- is not protected. A little staining is no big deal to me; I would not buy a knife of this class for cosmetics. Using the knife frequently, as well as sharpening it and wiping it down with an oily rag from time to time should be more than adequate to protect the knife from rust.

Initial Impressions

For this review, I chose the 1095 version. For my uses, 1095 is the better steel for a field knife, primarily for its ease of sharepning, but also for its toughness. The 1095 knife came decently sharp from the factory, but it was not quite shaving sharp. I steeled it for about 45 seconds on a grooved Henkels kitchen steel, and it would shave hair from my arm. In contrast, the D2 version came with a hair popping edge from the factory.
The knife is well finished, especially the tang to scale fit. The grinds are even and the zinc phosphate finish evenly applied. The traction grooves along the spine are well formed and even. The is a small amount of tang expossed at the pommel, with a laynard attachement hole. The handle is a very ergonomic shape, offering comfort and security in a wide rangle of positions. It fits my rather large hand like a glove.
The knife same supplied with a Spec. Ops. Nylon sheath with a kydex liner. Because the RAT-7 sheaths are being upgraded to an even higher quality model, I have not focused much of the review on it. I do however, like the sheath, it is well built and offers a variety of attachment points.

Given the intended role of this knife as a wilderness survival, utility and combat knife, I used the knife much harder than I normally use a fine cutting tool. For many portions of this review, I used the knife side by side with a K-BAR Next Generation knife. I thought this was a fitting choice for comparison since they are both designed to fill the same role. As well, many people reading this review will be familiar with the performance of the K-BAR.

Kitchen Work

Chicken Stir Fry ala Chad

As always, I began by using the knife in the kitchen. I find that kitchen work provides me with a lot of feedback on how a knife will perform in general (low stress) cutting tasks. Since getting the RAT-7, I have prepared numerous meals with it. Although it is much thicker than is optimal for a kitchen knife (I usually use knives that are about 1/16” thick with full flat grinds and very thin edges), the full flat grind allows it to perform well for a knife of its size. The knife was very secure with wet, soapy or greasy hands, because of the excellent ergonomic shape of the handle, and also due to the texture of the canvas micarta handle.

Comparison to K-BAR: Though they are the same stock thickness, the RAT-7 is much more efficient in the kitchen. The short saber grind of the K-BAR does not allow it to cut though vegtables without splitting them. A well, the RAT-7’s excellent handle makes it more comfortable in a wide array of grip positions, and the choil allows me to choke up on the blade for more control in fine cutting tasks.

END Part 1

 

[knifetester]

Part 2
Splitting Wood

For me, any hard use outdoors knife has to be able to split wood. When there is three feet of snow on the ground, the only way to get dry wood is to take down dead standing wood, knock off the portions that are saturated and split the rounds into easy to burn thickness. As well as a suitable splitting tool, a good saw is an essential wilderness comanion for me, especially in the winter.

The RAT-7 performed very well at splitting wood. The 7” blade allows wood up to 5 inches to be split with ease. The handle was very comfortable, and remained secure, with no vibration issues that can sometime happen when splitting wood with a full tang knife. Here, the toughness of the 1095 steel really shines. After being pounded through enough wood to get a nice blaze going, it was still sharp enough to scrape hair of my arm. There were no flat spots, no edge rolling and no chips.

In terms of real world utility, after spittling the wood, the knife was stil sharp enough to fuzz up sticks to begin the fire making process.

Comparison to K-BAR: Though the KBAR was easily tough enough to split wood, it was not nearly as eficient as the RAT-7. This was primarily due to the sharpened swedge along the top of the blade near the tip. The swedge would imbed itself into the baton, drasticlaly reducding the amount of energy transferred to the actual splitting. On average, on wood that wood take the RAT-7 five baton strikes to split, it would take the K-Bar about seven hits, as well as time wasted freeing the swedge from the baton.

Sharpening
I chose the 1095 steel for its ease of sharpening, it is soft enough to be readily steeled in the field. When I was done with the splitting work, I set about sharpening the knife with my Edge-Pro. To be clear, the knife was not dull by any means, I just wanted to thin the edge a bit to make the knife perform the way.

I used a three stage sharpening process, applying the first edge at 18 degrees per side, then 15 degrees per side to “knock off the shoulders” of the grind (AKA add a back bevel), then added a 20 degree per side micro bevel. For each stage I used the Course stone to set the edge, the worked through the 220, 400 and 600 grit stones.
The very edge of the knife is not dramatically thinner, but with the shoulders removed from the edge the cutting performance was noticeably better, while still allowing for a high degree of durability.
For wood work, a more polished edge is ideal, however for kitchen wok and general utility tasks, which are the majority of my cutting needs, I prefer the tootheir, more aggressive edge that a slightly courser stone leaves. If wood working was on the agenda, I could have used the Ultra-fine stones, or even the polishing tapes to produce a mirror polished edge.

Back to the Kitchen

With the edge thinned out a bit, I went back to the kitchen. I used the RAT-7 to prepare a number of meals, cutting all sorts of meats, fruits, vegetables and breads. There were no dings or rolls in the edge after accidental glances off bone and ceramic plates. Quartering roasted chickens, cleaving through the breast and back bones, as well as using the tip to pop the thigh joints showed me the edge was easily tough enough to handle the work I would expect of it.
On a cold Winter day, there are few things more comforting than a hot bowl of heart soup. A good one for Michigan Winters is Bean Soup ala Chad.

Soak an assortment of beans overnight and drain. Pick out any that have not swelled. Also make sure there are no rocks mixed in with the beans
Chop up a couple onions, some garlic, celery, carrots and left-over ham. If you want more soup, chop up lots. If you want to make less, don’t chop up so much.

Add stock to cover, bring to boil, then reduce to a low simmer for a few hours.

Serve with a crusty loaf of bread, a nice red wine and enjoy with someone you love.

 

[knifetester]

Part 3
Sometimes, a simple repast can be the finest, and one of my favorite light meals is fruit and cheese.

Utility Work

I used the RAT-7 for a number of utility taks, both because I had things that needed to be done, and to get a feel for how the knife cuts. Cutting cardboard, the Rat-7 performed well, and held its edge for longer than I expected. In comparison to the K-BAR, the RAT-7 required much less force to push through the cardboard.

I also used the RAT-7 to cut through a number of zip ties. I tend to zip tie many bits of equipment when packing forthe field to keep it secure. I have found that cutting through the hard plastic can be damaging to an edge. Here, this was not an issue, the RAT-7 pull cut through zip ties after zip tie without effecting the edge at all.

Tip Strength and Handle Security Under Extreme Use

After a cold spell, I found that our Koi pond was frozen over, despite the bubbler that keeps the water flowing. The fish need a hole in the ice to allow for gas exchange or they will die. Given the price of nice Koi and my daughter's affection toward them, I am vigilent in keeping a breathing hole open.

Usually I use an old drywall hammer with an edge ground on it to so this, but since I had the RAT-7 on me, I used it instead. Using an icepick grip, I hammered the tip into the 4” thick ice, breaking out an opening. The integral guard provided excellent security, my hand never budged and given the force I was stabbing the ice with, it was not uncomfortable. The tip was uneffected by this use.

The RAT-7 compared to some other knives I have used:

Basically, from my use of various knives, I have found that the RAT-7 is "Best in Class" in the 7” production range for my uses. Here are some specifics:

Becker Knife and Tool BK-7:
First let me say that Ethan Becker is a genius, from his patrol packs to his cook books, he does things right. The BK-7 offers the best bang for the buck in this class. At under 50 bucks, it has a great design, is a very effective cutting tool and is tough enough to witrhstand my uses without problem.

However, the Becker handle that is common to all the Becker line of knives does not fit my hand well. As well, the swiss glass material vibrates when I usd it for chopping and worse when batoning. As well it is very slick with wet hands, and in the field my hands are often grimy and wet when working with wood. The design of the handle gives it a decent amount of mechanical security, i.e. due to the swells at the ricasso and pommel, the knife is unlikely to slip completely from your hands, it is still not secure enough for my uses.


K-BAR USMC

I have used both the original and Next generation modles, the RAT-7 is superior to both for my uses. I find the next generation (adopting Karwan;s modifications) to be much better than the original.

The Next generation offers superior corrosion resistance, but in all other aspects, I find the RAT to perform better, as noted in the review.

Swamp Rat Camp Trap/ Busse #7

While the Busse/ Swamp Rat line of knives offers a very strong product, I find it to be not well suited for my uses. It is simply overbuilt and far to thick for the kind of cutting performance I expect in a knife. At 1/4" thick at the spine, ground to about .050 behind the edge, it is just far to thick for my uses (try carving fuzz sticks to light a fire with that geometry and you'll see what I mean). These knives are promoted as being suitable for chopping concrete and bending in a vise to make them a pretzel and return to true. That is great and all, but I have never had a reason to do any of those things, instead I prefer a knife that does not sacrifice cuttting performance for claimed extreme durability. So for my uses, cutting meat, leather rope and wood the RAT is the better knife for me. If you cut a lot of concrete with your knife, perhaps you would be better served by the Busse or Swamp Rat knives.

While I like the Busse handle design, and it fits my hand very well and absorbs shock well, it is inferior to the RAT-7 in terms of handle durability and security. Micarta is simply stronger than rubber, can be whacked on, exposed to camp fires, etc. Also when there are skeeters the size of humming birds buzzing around looking to drain me of blood, I soak myself and my gear in 100% DEET. I have seen DEET literally melt rubber handles away. I have heard that Busse rubber (whatever they call it, it feels like santoprene) is supposed to be better than kraton in that regards

The SOG Seal knife
This is a knife that did not impress me at all. The handle shape did not fit my hand well, and the blade shape and design was not good for my use. The edge was terribly thick, and when I sharpned it the steel would form a big floppy burr, and when that broke off it left an unaligned crappy edge. I finally got it shaving sharp using a buffing wheel, but the edge did not last long at all.

To be, this knife is proof that people will buy a knife on the sole grounds that high speed operators use them. Preposterous.

Glock Field Knife
Simply put, tough as hell, but did not cut well.

Of course, the above is simply my opinion based on how I use a knife. Your needs and like may be different, so YMMV.

Conclusion
The RAT-7 lives up to its heritage in an excellent line of knives. It is an extremely cohesive design, providing good cutting performance, durability, ergonomics and security.
Given my occupation as a law enforcement officer, some may find it odd that I did not mention the knife’s potential use in that role. This is because I can not carry a knife this big on duty due to public perception concerns. As well, it is just too big a knife for the vast majority of things most police officers need a knife for. Recognizing the need for a knife that will fill that role, the RAT team and Ontario Knife Company will soon be introducing the RAT-3, which should bring the great performance of the RAT line into an urban suitable package.



Resources:
The Randall's Adventure and Training website, which includes an informative discusion forum can be found here:
www.jungletraining.com

 

[OwenM]

You can always count on Chad for a beyond awesome review with great pics!
He has great taste in knives
Danged if we don't wear the same watch, now, too.

 

[panella]

I have both RAT-7's, two in 1095 and one in D2. Haven't used the D2 much, but the 1095 has seen lots of use and has performed extremely well and held an edge much better than I expected. They feel great in the hand as well.

To be fair, there have been some QC issues with RAT's in the past mentioned on these forums. But mine have all been great. For all around toughness I'd get the 1095 steel. knifetester's review says it all.

 

[averageguy]

"While the Busse/ Swamp Rat line of knives offers a very strong product, I find it to be not well suited for my uses. It is simply overbuilt and far to thick for the kind of cutting performance I expect in a knife. At 1/4" thick at the spine, ground to about .050 behind the edge, it is just far to thick for my uses (try carving fuzz sticks to light a fire with that geometry and you'll see what I mean). These knives are promoted as being suitable for chopping concrete and bending in a vise to make them a pretzel and return to true. That is great and all, but I have never had a reason to do any of those things, instead I prefer a knife that does not sacrifice cuttting performance for claimed extreme durability."

That's the best part of the review. I've made similar arguments on these forums for awhile now. Cliff loves that SR product though.

 

[knifetester]

I guess it depends on your use. If you are prying out cabinets like Don Lehue did with his Steelheart or prying open logs for grubs like Ron Hood then the thicker knife is probably a better choice.

If you are slicing apples and carving tent pegs, probably even 3/16" too thick.

The Rat-7 seems to offer a nice balance between cutting and durability.

Moving up to the 9" class, thjings change. There you need the additional spine thickness for mass, lateral strength and clearing chips, preventing binding.

So while SR may not be a perfect choice for the 7" class for me (or Chad probably), it would probbaly be a very solid choice in a larger class of knife.

I would rank the Battle Rat right up there with the Ranger RD9, and I would take the Rat Daddy over either.

I think it was Joe Talmadge that wrote that the 7" class was the worst of both worlds, it is too big to make a good fine work knife, yet is too small to make a good chopping knife.

 

[averageguy]

"These knives (SR - Busse) are promoted as being suitable for chopping concrete and bending in a vise to make them a pretzel and return to true."

"Moving up to the 9" class, thjings change. There you need the additional spine thickness for mass, lateral strength and clearing chips, preventing binding."

Your comments on the 7" hold true for this class as well. Whether or not you have a thicker spine there is no reason for that fat edge. It's still a concrete chopper with little other utility. Take a look at the Wheeler Camp knife that he made for Danbo in the custom forum. And by Cliff's own admission the edges on these are thicker than an axe. These are some type of specialized tool but not a knife at least according to the NCKG. You wont see many MS knives with anything near the edge on these and I suspect these makers know a thing or two about knife performance.

 

[knifetester]

I don't disagree with you about edge thickness. Most big knives are overbuilt for my uses. However thinning out an edge is not a big deal.

For example, I have a Ranger RD9 that is thicker edged than any Busse I have seen, it is the thickest edge knife I have ever seen. Still, there are enough positive points about the knife, mmny in fact, that justify thinning the edge out for what I sue knives for.

It is easier to remove metal than add it back on.

As well, if you want a thinner edge, ask the maker for a thinner edge. NO harm, no foul.

I will probably send my RD9 back to Justin for that.

The 9" class is primarily suited for heavier work, chopping, limbing, prying , etc. so the thicker profile may be logical.

You wont see many MS knives with anything near the edge on these and I suspect these makers know a thing or two about knife performance.

Yes, ABS class knives are among the best performing knives, optimal balde profiles for wood craft. I prefer those with drop point rather than clip points. Nick Wheeler makes an exceptional knife. I have two in fact, and they are nothing short of excellent, and they are his lower priced knives.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

[CU/7]

The design of the handle gives it a decent amount of mechanical security, i.e. due to the swells at the ricasso and pommel, the knife is unlikely to slip completely from your hands, it is still not secure enough for my uses.

Grip tape can solve that, you can also coarse finish it, a sak saw works well for cross hatching.

[Swap Rat]

At 1/4" thick at the spine, ground to about .050 behind the edge, it is just far to thick for my uses (try carving fuzz sticks to light a fire with that geometry and you'll see what I mean).

That (fuzz sticks) would be more dependent on edge angle and would have nothing to do with spine thickness as the wood never "sees" that part of the knife. Puukkos for example have massively thick edges (the full stock thickness of the knife) but carve woods well as the edge is acute.

Many makers known for very high cutting ability run thick edges, they just use relief grinds to produce the necessary cutting ability. Some of the makers with very high reps for efficient cutting also use very thick stock, even on small knives, Boye for example.

You can also ask for a more acute edge on the Swamp Rats from the shop, or return them to be adjusted if bought on the secondary market - or just adjust the angle yourself.

If you cut a lot of concrete with your knife, perhaps you would be better served by the Busse or Swamp Rat knives.

The concrete impacts are of course not used to represent the suitability of the knife as a tool for a mason but to be able to take accidental edge impacts. Spring temper flexibility has several uses, safety being the main one as it stops sharding, plus a longer lifetime in hard use. The cutting ability of the knives has also long been demonstrated along with the edge retention and other aspects, they are simply promoted so one dimensionally.

While I like the Busse handle design, and it fits my hand very well and absorbs shock well, it is inferior to the RAT-7 in terms of handle durability and security. Micarta is simply stronger than rubber, can be whacked on, exposed to camp fires, etc.

The Swamp Rat rubber grips are much easier to cut, puncture and generally abrade than Micarta, they are however also fully guaranteed like the blades. Heat isn't a problem in general, I have exposed them to open flame and talked about it in the past, you can even use this to seal tears. The softer grips also cushion more than micarta/g10. There are micarta versions available.

Also when there are skeeters the size of humming birds buzzing around looking to drain me of blood, I soak myself and my gear in 100% DEET. I have seen DEET literally melt rubber handles away. I have heard that Busse rubber (whatever they call it, it feels like santoprene) is supposed to be better than kraton in that regards

Damn, you can only get like 17% around here anymore. I don't use it much as there is nothing nasty in the bugs around here and the biting doesn't both me significantly, but my brother does and the handle on the Camp Tramp wasn't significantly effected. I'll do a soak later today.

If you are prying out cabinets like Don Lehue did with his Steelheart or prying open logs for grubs like Ron Hood then the thicker knife is probably a better choice.

You don't need to go this extreme, the 1/4" blade will be more fluid in woods and gives more chopping ability due to the weight, it is also much stiffer and able to baton through knottier woods. I had an RTAK take a bend in the blade body trying to work through a bad piece of wood as it warped around a knot.

I think it was Joe Talmadge that wrote that the 7" class was the worst of both worlds, it is too big to make a good fine work knife, yet is too small to make a good chopping knife.

A proper ground 7" wood craft blade can have about 75% of the chopping ability of a GB Wildlife hatchet (on small woods that it can clear chips) and cut similar to a Deerhunter on carving woods. The problem is not a lot of them are made that way, it doesn't take much though to turn a decent one into it. You can go a long way with an edge relief grind. As with any tool, you need a decent example properly optomized to judge its ability.

-Cliff

 

[t1mpani]

I swear averageguy, a Busse knife gave you a booboo in another life and you still haven't forgiven it.

The mastersmiths certainly do know what they're doing, and their knives cut great, especially the cutting competition knives--as long as wood is the only thing their edge meets. However, have a glancing blow in a hard knot or (heaven forbid) a hidden nail and that super-thin edge will have trouble. The same thing holds true for GB axes and the like---the super acute edge translates into fine cutting ability but fairs poorly when it hits something it's not supposed to hit. Again and again and again and again it has been explained that the concrete tests have nothing to do with showing the knive's suitability for cutting concrete and everything to do with showing that if they come into contact with something they shouldn't have, they'll survive.

And before you tell me about real knives, I have a RAT-7 and Beckers and--yes--even some master/journeyman knives and I greatly respect them for the great tools they are. At the same time, I recognize there are things they don't do as well. When I've had to clear mesquite bushes out away from my house, a big knife is the way to go as an axe is too massive for the springy, gnarley brances--and a few moments among those thorns will put any thoughts of having one's hand move back and forth with a saw out of mind. And I'll tell you the honest truth---mesquite bushes will chew up thin edges and spit them out--it's tough and horrible. I have a Newt Livesay RTAK (3/16" spine, wide flat ground blade, very sharp and acute) that got rippled to the point that I had to completely reset its edge. Busse and Rats laugh at stuff like this.

AND--if I am having to clear vines or light vegetation, the RTAK will leave the heavier Wauseon blades in the dust, as it's sharper and quicker, so no, I don't believe Busse is the end all be all. Of course, that said, I just recently got a Rat Daddy and have thinned its edge out to resemble the RTAK's, and am very curious to see how expertly done 52100 fairs against Newt's experty done 1095 with the same edge profile. Oh and yes, you did indeed see it--I thinned the edge out. This is not some arcane art, but in fact a very easy (if time consuming) task, that allows you to tailor your knife, ANY knife, to suit your particular needs. Files available at a hardware store near you.

I guess my primary point in all this is, why does a great review of a great knife have to turn into a thread slinging mud at another knife? I see this in spades on these forums--nobody feels they can promote their own likes on their own merits; they have to continue on to say that anybody with different preferences must just use their knives for something stupid. *complete with frowny five year old face* Actually, there's a few forums you won't find it on. You know one of them? Busse's forum. People start trashing (or even being dismissive) of other makers' blades and Jerry will put a stop to it real quick, of course only if the HOGs haven't shut the person up first. I guess it's felt there that, beyond just being classless, negative campaigning against other's products isn't needed to sell Busses. And you know what? It really isn't needed to sell the Ontario Randalls or Beckers either. They're great knives, and really don't need anybody's justification.

Tremendous review, great stew and great pix!

Oh, and a quick P.S.---Deet won't do anything at all to resiprine.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

The mastersmiths certainly do know what they're doing, and their knives cut great, especially the cutting competition knives--as long as wood is the only thing their edge meets.

I have not handled a lot of them, but Kirks's are not ultra-fragile :

http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/images/rk_bowie_light_concrete_chop.jpg

This was after chopping a large v in a concrete block with enough force to shatter a Strider WB. You can't even tell from the picture it was used except for one spot where the edge dips up a little. No massive damage, just wear and deformation of the edge, relief was ~10 degrees or so with a convex sweep.

The edge is weaker of course and not as durable and in general made for a different class of work than the stock edge on a Battle Rat. I think it is fine, and even necessary for people to discuss preferences, as it allows others to find better blades for them by finding people with similar preferences. At times though commentaries become too one sided where people ignore the tradeoffs of what they like and start to misrepresent the other side and even degrade people with different preferences.

In the above for example was there any attempt to discuss the other blades with the manufacturers to see what they were designed for and see if maybe some aspect of performance was ignored, while there is a great deal about the history of the RAT's there is little about the others. In some cases it is clear this wasn't done as Busse has talked about his knives in detail, why he does what he does and the options available to the consumer which describes a very different senario than noted in the review.

-Cliff