Rat Trap & Swamp Rat - first impression

[Cliff Stamp]

...the overall thickness of the liner is not that important in the overall scheme of things.

Yes, lock issues are rarely with liners buckling. It isn't like you can exert the force sideways, it is a compressive force straight down. It isn't hard to bend a butter knife in your hands by leveraging it sideways, but try to bend it by just pressing the point against a hard surface, it is much more difficult to do.

-Cliff

 

[R.W.Clark]

However, if you start with that same butterknife bent to begin with it will bend with little effort. The lock being bowed is a serious issue and should not be accepted.

This may be a one time thing and all other Rat Traps may have prefectly straight lock bars, but the warning signs are there.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

However, if you start with that same butterknife bent to begin with it will bend with little effort. The lock being bowed is a serious issue and should not be accepted.

Yes, this is pretty easy to test. Just try to bend it with a reasonable amount of force and see how it effects the lock. I don't recall mine being bent, Joe has it now. He can check this with mine.

-Cliff

 

[R.W.Clark]

Truely not trying to start anything, but that photo has me a little spooked. He said that it did have some give and flex to it already and thats just bad.

All of a locking liners strength relys on everything being a straight line, once you have a bow, it starts going south real fast. If its a pattern they will need to fix it pretty fast.

 

[Laceration]

Do you have a knife that you like now? The RT and the Manix are actually very different animals, I have/had both. If you can express a "type" that you like, I'll do my best to describe which, in my opinion, may be a better fit.

Well, for the past two years I've carried a CRKT M16 EDC plain edge tanto that I like alot. It was my first purchase of a more expensive knife. I used to carry a Ken Onion Chive and also a Schrade folder would make it into my rotation. I'm trying to find a higher end EDC. I'm interested in the BM 710 (or 705) as well after seeing the picture of it in this thread, it's a beautiful knife, and I've read alot of glowing reviews of it on the forum. My edcs don't see alot of heavy use, mostly they're used for light to medium duty cutting chores and as a last resort self defense tool. I'm thinking that the BM might be more my style but I find the design of the RT and Manix very appealing as well. Any advice?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

All of a locking liners strength relys on everything being a straight line, once you have a bow, it starts going south real fast.

There has to be a bend in the liner in order for it to make contact with the blade. If it was straight it would just run up the side of the handle. You would want a gentle uniform arc for maxium strength. Contact the manufacturer and check for expected behavior, test the blade, and see what happens. If there is a problem return it and get it fixed.

-Cliff

 

[howiesatwork]

There has to be a bend in the liner in order for it to make contact with the blade. If it was straight it would just run up the side of the handle. You would want a gentle uniform arc for maxium strength. Contact the manufacturer and check for expected behavior, test the blade, and see what happens. If there is a problem return it and get it fixed.

-Cliff

Uh, no on the arc. The bend should be at the end of the liner lock bar.
All force should transmitted in as straight a line as is possible, else you have two spring actions to worry about.
Same goes for framelocks - no gentle arc anywhere.

 

[lagarto]

Ditto that Howie. I just checked out my CRKT Prowler and it's as you say. The liner springs out from the side when the blade is locked, however it remains straight, not bowed. Stockman, I'd contact SRKW about this, I've not dealt with them personally, but I hear they do have an excellent warranty. For more information on the functioning of the liner lock Bob Terzuola's book The Tactical Folding Knife" provides excellent information and diagrams the "triangle principle" quite nicely.

Lagarto

 

[tortoise]

Any advice?

Well Benchmades I can't really comment on, I've only owned one (a CQC-7.) It was okay, I never loved it, and the company's current behavior with regard to trademarks makes them unattractive to me.

The Manix is much thicker than the Rat Trap. It feels it too, in hand and in pocket. Not obtrusively so, you can read a myriad Manix reviews around and most love it, it is the hot Spyderco right now. The steel is excellent, blade shape too and fit and finish are first rate. It cuts like crazy, no surprise there. It's really a heck of a knife, especially for the price. For me though, I found the Manix too chunky. I haven't found a need for dual steel liners, one nested one never having failed me. Nor do I love the lockback, nothing to do with functionality, I just prefer the speed and smoothness of the liner lock. I also really prefer an open back spacer for cleaning and looks.

A much better comparison from Spyderco is the Military. I'm a big Mil fan and the Rat Trap is a very "Military-esque" folder, therefore I knew I was predisposed to like it. I did. It's thin and light, though heavier (we're talking grams here) than the Military. The blade shape is fantastic, the belly is in exactly the right spot to rock back and forth on a cutting board and chop veggies. I spoke with Sal Glesser about this one time at the NYC show. Before then I had never even thought about how much thought goes into where to put "belly." A bit forward or a touch back makes enormous changes in cutting characteristics. Swamp Rat really got this right. If you've been using a tanto you'll probably be very satisfied with any of your choices with regard to cutting efficacy. Anyway, the materials are nearly identical: S30V, G-10, etc. (Spyderco uses custom G-10, I'm not sure about Swamp Rat.) The Rat Trap is super-model good looking, something my beloved Military never even aspired to be.

The Rat Trap almost replaced the Mil as my EDC, but two things held it back for me. The oval opening hole works fine, but is not the equal of the round hole. I really do find a difference. The greater sticking point is that releasing the liner is difficult when compared to the Mil. The scale on the Spyderco is shaped to allow access, but I find that I must wedge my thumb between the Trap's scales to get at the liner to close the knife. When sitting opening and closing the blade (a.k.a. "knifesturbating") I find that my thumb quickly says "enough" with the Trap. I could live with the oval hole, but the lock release is, for me, too far inferior to that of the Mil to overlook. I have not seen this complaint from any other Trap user so it may just be me. More likely, I imagine that if I hadn't used the Military before the Trap it would seem less of a problem.

Overall the Manix and the Rat Trap are so substantially different in "feel" that I wouldn't put one against the other. But since for this discussion we have, if I had to choose I'd go Manix because the lock release on the Trap is a deal breaker for me. It's strange to say that because the Rat Trap is much more my preferred style, and I still have my Trap while I traded my Manix away. But after just a few days trial, I never carry the Trap (it'll go on the trading block at some point, I'm sure) and went back to the Military. That, if you couldn't tell, would be my ultimate recommendation by the way. If the Trap or the Manix were the only choices, I'd go Manix, but I'd miss the thinner style.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

The bend should be at the end of the liner lock bar.

That would be a horrible weak point, because all the load would concentrate there. Can you put up a picture of what you are describing, or just a line drawing because I think we are on two different wavelengths. Every liner, compression, and integral lock I have now, or have seen, are all gentle arcs throughout the liner.

Overall the Manix and the Rat Trap are so substantially different in "feel" that I wouldn't put one against the other.

It is like comparing an Ontario machete to a Valiant Golok, similar, but fairly different in scope of work. The Military as you noted is a much more direct Spyderco analogue blade.

In any case it is nice to see one maker be so critical of anothers product. I wish there was more of this, especially in discussing negative aspects of performance and be willing to make such powerful statements as possible production level problems. Maybe Eric could return the favor and compare one of the Swamp Rat folders or fixed blades to one of Clark's in a similar manner.

-Cliff

 

[R.W.Clark]

OK, lets see if I can explain this. I can't take anything directly out of the Terzoula book as that would be reprinting without his persmission and would voilate his property rights. But I can pass the jist of it.

I did two quick sketches. Forgive the artwork, I am known for my knives not my drawing skills .

In the drawing labeled lock 1, we have the ideal locking liner. This is much like Cliff first stated. A butterknife, reguardless of thickness is very hard to bend when pressed end to end. Or you can think of it like the old stick in the sliding glass door trick. The potential energy of A (knife trying to close) is transferred down the lockbar to B in a nearly straight line. The only energy that would be lost is at the small bend at C. This loss is contained by the handle scale.

In the drawing Lock 2, you have a bowed lock bar. Energy enters A but is now spread all along a mass array of C area. This would be like pushing on that same butterknife if it was already bent. And unlike in lock 1 you do not have the scale to support any possible flex. So you have basically replaced the lock with a leaf spring. This was already proven out by the reviewers comment that there was play and flex in the lockup when pushed.

Please note that as I said before, this is nothing agaist Busse, SWKW or the Rat Trap as a whole. This very well could be a one time problem. Just be sure and keep a watch out for it if you decide to buy this knife.

I once had a Syderco Endura lock break during use giving me a few stitches. I went out and bought a brand new Syderco Endura. One little glitch does not mean everything is bad.

 

[lagarto]

R.W., thanks for the artwork, that was exactly the sentiment I was trying to convey, but couldn't really express myself. Every linerlock I own looks like Diagram A. I'm a visual learner, so the butter knife analogy just didn't work for me. " Forgive my drawing skills I'm known for my knives not my drawings", actually for those of us who are Engineeringly challenged those drawings are ideal, conveying a relatively complex concept in the simplest possible manner.

Lagarto

 

[Cliff Stamp]

That is what I thought you meant the first one, none of my locks look like that. In the picture you can clearly put your finger on the exact spot where it bends.

I just took a Maxx and pushed the lock all the way over so I could see the frame in full bend. Even then you can't tell where the bend actually runs in the frame it is so gradual. Same as in the Rat liner in the above, the first half a dozen or so of the "teeth" are almost in a straight line and then there is an arc.

The shorter the arc the easier it would be to bend the liner by pressing down on it because it will focus the stress in that area. If you take it to an extreme, which is an arc with no radius, i.e. a point bend through an angle, the strength is almost nothing because you have just moved from a compressive bend to a side torque which are not even in the same league in regards to resisting movement.

I think the whols strength issue is a side point though, because I have actually seen no liner breaks reported. The main issue is one of the mating surfaces and how stable the join there and how easy it is to transfer torques to side loads on the locks. Some liners do this very easy, some resist it extremely well.

It certainly has my attention now though and I will really focus on the Rat Trap when Joe is finished with it and compare it to the other liners I have like the Spyderco Military.

-Cliff

 

[R.W.Clark]

The weakness of a bow can also be offset by thicker liners. Thicker liners mean that it takes more force to bend the lock bar therefor the bow is less and less an issue.

Also due to the very nature of a liner or frame lock, this should not cause any catastrophic failure of the lock. Unlike a button lock, lock back, axis lock or other similar systems where lock failure is sudden and catastrophic, this type of failure in a liner lock is slow and is easy to spot. The lock will just slowly bend. You can generally catch it and get it fixed long before it really becomes any real threat to safety.

Lock face engagement is the safetly issue on a liner lock and the Rat Trap seems to have way more then enough of that.

 

[Laceration]

It's strange to say that because the Rat Trap is much more my preferred style, and I still have my Trap while I traded my Manix away. But after just a few days trial, I never carry the Trap (it'll go on the trading block at some point, I'm sure) and went back to the Military. That, if you couldn't tell, would be my ultimate recommendation by the way. If the Trap or the Manix were the only choices, I'd go Manix, but I'd miss the thinner style.

Thanks for the info, unfortunately you didn't help narrow my choices down, now you added the Military to my list! I probably won't get the Rat Trap for the simple fact that I can't go anywhere to actually handle one and see how it feels. I have a store near me that stocks a lot of Spydercos, so I'll be heading down there this weekend to check out the Manix and Military. Thanks for the help and I'll let you know what I go with.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

The weakness of a bow can also be offset by thicker liners. Thicker liners mean that it takes more force to bend the lock bar therefor the bow is less and less an issue.

Yes, but even with thin liners, this doesn't seem to be the issue. It isn't the liner bending but actually coming off of the tang that causes problems.

Some are really unstable in that you can give them a light pop and they just disengage, some are stable to impacts but move readily with torques, some require really heavy torques.

I have never an integral or liner that didn't torque disengage. Joe however described some customs awhile back that were stable in this regard, they were even light gentlemens folders, so it isn't a size/thickness issue.

Of course on the better ones, the torques are significant and you are starting to move past cutting, certaintly light cutting and into leverage / prying type work.

-Cliff

 

[Stockman]

Some really interesting discussion and thoughts on the liner lock mechanism of the Rat Trap and other liner locks - Thickness, curvature or straightness, bending etc. etc.
After 6 months of owning this knife, and using it frequently on a daily basis, the lock up is as tight as it was when new, it hasn't failed or faulted. The liner still meets the tang at the same point whether or not it is snapped open with a flick of the rist or opened slowly.
I am sure that I could damage/disingage the lock by torquing it in a vice or a crack in a log or whacking the spine regulary on a hard surface - or some other extra heavy duty test - but is this really what one does with a folding knife?
I choose to carry the Rat Trap over many other folders due to its length of blade to handle ratio, tip strength, blade profile, edge holding, carry comfort and reliability - based on my requirements only. I have stronger, more tactical, faster opening, better finnished and shinnier folders - but as an alround package ( again emphasize "to suit my requirements for a Folder" ) the Trap is an exceptional tool that has not let me down.

 

[Laceration]

Tortoise, based on your recommendations and my LEO paranoia, I went with the Para-Military. The Military was just a bit too large considering where I live and the PM works fantastically for what I wanted. It has become my EDC knife and rarely raises an eyebrow even though I use it constantly throughout the day. Actually, the only times it really becomes a topic of conversation is when people admire it. Thanks for the advice. It was a big factor in my new higher-end knife decision even though I went with the Military's little brother. Just wanted to follow up and say thanks.

 

[tortoise]

Glad to hear that you're satisfied. -Sorry about your paranoia .

I have a PM too. It's a most "Spyder-like" knife, very representative of the company. I like it, mostly because it's very familiar to the eye and the hand for a fan of the Military model. It gives all of the things I so like about its bigger sibling: blade shape with good belly, flat grind, open back-spacer, oversized opening hole, grippy G-10 on an up-sized handle, while having unique attributes as well.

Congratulations on making the right decision for your situation.

 

[UltraSteele]

So as soon as I saw the Rat Trap I thought I might want it... When I saw the pic above of a Rat Trap next to a Manix I knew I had to find one.

Where can I get one??!!!!


How much do they cost?!!