Razor/Misrepresntaion

Icky Thump

Icky Thump

Feedback: +124 / =0 / -0
Joined
Dec 8, 2011
Messages
4,071
...Traded for what was described as LNIB. Blade used, scratches thru' coating, lousy sharpening/touch up (worse than I can capture in pics)..back spacer and clip from BK version, no micro fiber bag (small things on the bag...but I love my bags..)..Would you describe this as LNIB?...yea, me neither..Hemmed and hawed at sending pics..made excuses..told him "no sweat, take your word"..

Apologies for the rant, in perhaps the wrong section..The guy finally gets back to me, after lousy communication, (whatever, I know how a busy schedule is, just wanted to hear he had received the knife I sent..for my peace of mind) to tell me he is having problems disengaging the lock...had to use his SAK to disengage...lol..So..I dont think Ill be offering a "trade back" as ...who knows what my NIB looks like after he was prying on it...plus...I just dont trust him at this point..

I do not think this a "Felony"..just feel I should disclose..In my 4-5 short years, doing this knife thing...I would not have represented this knife in this way..





Try not to be too distracted by my Dr Suess gloves. Knife isnt overall that terrible..edge is jacked..easy enough fix..not too much material taken..just rolled here and there..uneven..piss poor, hack job touch up/sharpening..Looked like some dried blood in the pivot/tang..from a recent skinning (speculation)..planned on making it a user anyway..just a little pissed about the description from a "Gold Member" w/ 100% fb..

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1248011-BM-Contego

Again, worse than I can capture in pics..










Copy of my email, stating.


PA Trix Icky Thump <patrix7dedonato@gmail.com>
5:18 PM (14 minutes ago)

to ay
Hey Ray,

I did indeed receive the 810. Have to tell you, man..a little put off at your description. Blade has seen use..not just a little...enough to score thru' the coating in multiple places. Edge has been sharpened...poorly...What appears to be dried blood in pivot/tang...Back spacer and clip from another 810...BK version...and no micro fiber bag...

Over all, the knife is solid. just a used, jacked up edge that can be fixed w/ a little work...Ive only been doing this for about 4-5 years...maybe Im wrong, but I would describe this as a user..not even a light user....a straight up, user. I would have most certainly disclosed about the back spacer, the clip and the fact that it had seen a sharpening stone...no matter how good or poor the job was..The knife, in my opinion, was misrepresented. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and waived the picks that you seemed to stall, hem and haw...make excuses on...trusted your "Gold Membership" and your feed back.

As far as the difficulty on disengaging the lock on the GB...thats how they are...thats how they all are...take into account it is brand new...however, I dont think they get much easier when "broken in"..Not a "flicker"...

I would offer you a trade back...however, being that you've stated you took a SAK to the GB to to disengage...and the fact that I simply do not trust your assessment...I am not offering...I will keep this, cut any losses and say adieu'.

Not sure if you knew of the spacer/clip issue..Maybe you got it like that and didnt know any better, maybe you have poor eyesight.....What you should have know...w/ the amount of transactions you've had, is the edge condition,.. even w/ poor eyesight.

Just wanted to make you aware and inform you, as a gentleman...I will leave the according feedback... This will be the first negative I have left anyone....

Regards
 
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Another instance of misleading item descriptions on listings. What's LNIB to you may not be LNIB to him and so on. LNIB is a meaningless term that doesn't say anything about the condition of the knife and buyers should not assume anything if no details are given.
 
It's understandable you are not happy with the knife you recd, and your reluctance to accept a return of your knife based on what was done to it but....

I think we need to give fellow members the Chance to make things right before leaving Negative Feedback.
 
Once someone misrepresents a knife, especially at this level no other feedback but a negative can be left. How could anyone justify any different?
 
I'd say a negative is well deserved. Especially when there is hesitation to provide pictures. Then again, trading for something sight unseen isn't what I would consider using sound judgement either.
 
This is kind of sad.
Razor has been around here a long time, and has made a ton of positive transactions.
The kind of thing that usually leads to most of us being a bit more trusting of a member....

Taking your side of the story on this as the truth, you have to leave negative feedback for something like this, and inform the rest of us, especially due to his response to your concerns of misrepresentation.

A lie is a lie. Pictures sent or not, the description was LNIB, and that is a just not even close to being true.
 
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It's pretty easy to be taken in by a Gold member with 71 positive feedbacks. I would probably have taken him at his word also. It would be very interesting to hear from Razor. There was definitely misrepresentation there on the condition.
 
JR88FAN said:
This is kind of sad.
Razor has been around here a long time, and has made a ton of positive transactions.
The kind of thing that usually leads to most of us being a bit more trusting of a member....

Taking your side of the story on this as the truth, you have to leave negative feedback for something like this, and inform the rest of us, especially due to his response to your concerns of misrepresentation.

A lie is a lie. Pictures sent or not, the description was LNIB, and that is a just not even close to being true.
Click to expand...

A lie is a lie, but there is no excuse for not doing your due diligence. At least the picture could have afforded the OP the opportunity to see what this particular member considered LNIB. Anyone that saysno, I can't get a picture right now would have made me walk away. I mean, every phone out there can take pictures just about. There is something like 2.5 computers in every house, hell my TV can even surf the web and upload pictures via USB to imgur.

Has anyone bothered to send him a link to this thread, which is what is customary and what should be done? I mean, for any reason at all if someone is getting called out, they need to be informed so they can either defend their position or scurry and hide.
 
Ive just emailed the link to Razor..

I take responsibility for dealing w/ out pics. I dont believe Razor will scurry and hide. I truly believe he is busy and not aware as yet. As I believe he has difficulty posting pics and needs the assistance for his daughter..which he has stated, and again, I believe. I do not think he is "trying to pull a fast one" I dont think he would have inquired or sought advice about the lock on the knife I sent..

It very well could be, he hasnt had this 810 very long and it may have been misrepresented to him.. I just dont understand how someone w/ this much apparent experience could have claimed LNIB, w/ the edge condition as is and the non original parts....Maybe he wasnt paying attention..I can only guess..

I was hesitant to post, but after some conversation w/ friends who are long time enthusiasts w/ many years of forum experience...I decided to post as close to the time of receiving the knife as possible after informing him..I am seeking no recourse, nor will I accept a "trade back".. Just felt it my responsibility to post, whether Razor was aware of the obvious condition or not..a lapse of attention at best, a lie at worse... I am sure I dont know. Regardless, it was a misrepresentation.
 
LNIB and NIB are two very different things. Some people can be referencing the time that they have owned the knife.
It's a new knife (to me), and it was bought 3 days ago by someone that I bought it from yesterday.
In that sense, yes you could say the knife is new, as it was just recently bought. But that does not speak to the condition that the knife is in. When we reference condition, it should be described in detail.
Does the knife have scratches? It's not new if it marks that are not associated from the manufacturing process.
Has it been used, at all? Even sitting in the pocket for "a few days" is a used knife, period.
Has it been sharpened? If it has, then it is not a new knife. Even a "touch up on the old Sharpmaker and now it's real sharp" is not exactly "new" by everyone's standards.
Some people think that "normal wear marks" whatever that means, is acceptable on a knife being old as "Mint or "NIB"

That is why pictures tell the real deal. Clear, well lit, in focus, recent pictures of any and all defects are necessary. If people cannot accurately describe the items they are trying to sell, they really should move along to eBay and see how that works for them. Anything less than what is mentioned above should be agreed to by the persons entering the deal, and if something goes wrong they need to basically accept whatever the consequences are at that point. These situations are completely avoidable and the more you try and help people to NOT fall into these holes it seems they specifically go looking for the deep holes to jump into. Sad really.
 
Rev

Im not sure if I agree that assuming a LNIB description, from a Gold Member w/ 71 pos/feed..that the knife would not have an altered edge geo and obvious, different, non original parts..would be akin to seeking giant holes to jump in.. However, I take your point. I did assume, and waive pics..that were not refused..If you feel Ive posted w/ hast, which I may have, please delete/lock..honestly not a great feeling to flame a guy w/ solid rep..

After reviewing the emails...I would have thought after stating.."If knife is in fine shape, clean edge..no issues w/ box.." that would be the time to disclose any issue...I also understand that I wrote.."No issues w box"...which should have been..."no issues, w/ box"..my typo..my fault. Perhaps I was unclear. I will accept it all as a difference of interpretation of LNIB...and a lack of due diligence on my part..and a learning experience.


The mail starts here..this being Razor first response to my initial mail, inquiring:



Sorry for not back to you. My computer has been down. Yes, it is clear coat. Do you still want pictures? I will have to get my daughter to do it, so it may be this weekend. I would like to trade if you would.

Ray


-----Original Message-----
From: Ickythump - BladeForums.com
To:
Sent: Mon, Dec 29, 2014 7:10 pm
Subject: 810/Gayle Bradley


This is a message from Ickythump at BladeForums.com ( http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/forum.php
). The BladeForums.com owners cannot accept any responsibility for the contents
of the email.

To email Ickythump, you can use this online form:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sendmessage.php?do=mailmember&u=308201

OR, by email:
mailto:patrix7dedonato@gmail.com

This is the message:

Hi,

I have a NIB GB Folder I might consider trading for the 810.

"clear" cerecoated or BLK..? Pics?

I can send some pics as well if interested and the 810 is still available.

PA Trix Icky Thump <patrix7dedonato@gmail.com>
Jan 2 (7 days ago)

to ay
Hey,

No sweat. Yes, I would still like to trade. II would like pics if possible, however if you say the 810 is in fine shape, clean edge, no issues w/ box....thats good enough for me. I can try to get the GB out by tomorrow, however it could be Monday, Jan 5th at the latest. I will ship USPS Priority w/ Tracking/Insure.

If that works send me your address and Ill confirm when sent.

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x370/apache7/IMG_20140717_154917_zps087e3308.jpg

Let me know

Thanks

Patrick


ay
Jan 3 (6 days ago)

to me
Sounds good. I will still try and get you a picture. My daughter has been sick, so I will see if she feels like taking a picture. My address is

Kenneth Price
798 Falcon Drive.
Apt. 29
Abingdon, Va. 24210 Send me yours and I will try and get the BM out Monday. Thanks, and have a good weekend.



PA Trix Icky Thump <patrix7dedonato@gmail.com>
Jan 3 (6 days ago)

to ay
Right on. No worries on the pics. Ill get that out Monday for sure, send you confirmation/Track #

My kid sister moved to VA Beach about a year ago..just got back from a visit for Thanksgiving..

Alright, thanks for the trade, Ill let you know Mon. afternoon on the confirmation. Have a great weekend as well..

Sincerely

Patrick

P.DeDonato
P.O.Box 553
Sciota PA 18354


PA Trix Icky Thump <patrix7dedonato@gmail.com>
Jan 5 (4 days ago)

to ay
OK Kenneth,

The GB Folder shipped this morning.

Track/Insure # 9114 9011 8986 6009 6609 87


ay
Jan 5 (4 days ago)

to me
I will try and get the BM out today. I am at work, and I will try and get off if I can.

Ray


-----Original Message-----
From: PA Trix Icky Thump <patrix7dedonato@gmail.com>
To: ay <

ay
Jan 6 (3 days ago)

to me
Contego was shipped this morning. The tracking # is in the truck and it is to cold to get it. I will send it to you in the morning. Thanks for the trade.

Ray


-----Original Message-----
From: PA Trix Icky Thump <patrix7dedonato@gmail.com>
To: ay <
Sent: Mon, Jan 5, 2015 9:28 am
Subject: Re: 810/Gayle Bradley


PA Trix Icky Thump <patrix7dedonato@gmail.com>
Jan 7 (2 days ago)

to ay
OK..thanks.

Yes..very cold this past week here as well..

Looks like the GB will land today..please let me know it arrived and if your happy w/ it..

Thank you for the trade as well..

Patrick


ay
10:26 PM (23 hours ago)

to me
Patrick, did you get the BM? The tracking # is 9114 9999 4431 3956 4335 92. How do you get the GB unlocked when you open it? I have to get my swiss army knife out to unlock it.

Ray


-----Original Message-----
From: PA Trix Icky Thump <patrix7dedonato@gmail.com>
To: ay

PA Trix Icky Thump <patrix7dedonato@gmail.com>
5:18 PM (4 hours ago)

to ay
Hey Ray,

I did indeed receive the 810. Have to tell you, man..a little put off at your description. Blade has seen use..not just a little...enough to score thru' the coating in multiple places. Edge has been sharpened...poorly...What appears to be dried blood in pivot/tang...Back spacer and clip from another 810...BK version...and no micro fiber bag...

Over all, the knife is solid. just a used, jacked up edge that can be fixed w/ a little work...Ive only been doing this for about 4-5 years...maybe Im wrong, but I would describe this as a user..not even a light user....a straight up, user. I would have most certainly disclosed about the back spacer, the clip and the fact that it had seen a sharpening stone...no matter how good or poor the job was..The knife, in my opinion, was misrepresented. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and waived the picks that you seemed to stall, hem and haw...make excuses on...trusted your "Gold Membership" and your feed back.

As far as the difficulty on disengaging the lock on the GB...thats how they are...thats how they all are...take into account it is brand new...however, I dont think they get much easier when "broken in"..Not a "flicker"...

I would offer you a trade back...however, being that you've stated you took a SAK to the GB to to disengage...and the fact that I simply do not trust your assessment...I am not offering...I will keep this, cut any losses and say adieu'.

Not sure if you knew of the spacer/clip issue..Maybe you got it like that and didnt know any better, maybe you have poor eyesight.....What you should have know...w/ the amount of transactions you've had, is the edge condition,.. even w/ poor eyesight.

Just wanted to make you aware and inform you, as a gentleman...I will leave the according feedback... This will be the first negative I have left anyone....

Regards


PA Trix Icky Thump <patrix7dedonato@gmail.com>
8:37 PM (1 hour ago)

to ay
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1251225-Razor-Misrepresntaion
 
Last edited:
Icky, my statements are meant to be taken in general, this situation you are in has been happening with increasing frequency within the last 3 months. People have also gotten the idea that dishonest descriptions are alright and they get a pass here which is not the case. I just want people reading these threads to be reminded that they need to be careful and learn what is acceptable to ask for and what isn't. You know we run the spectrum from super nit-picky to super easygoing buyers. You have the guys that will pay three times what an item is worth because they really want it, and you have your tire kickers that ask 100 questions with no intention to buy.

In your specific case, I can understand wanting to trust someone with a bunch of positive feedback, but that is NOT the only thing to base things off of. It sucks that it turned out that way and no way you could have known what the item would have looked like, which is why I emphasize pictures to everyone. Now, some people can't take a picture to save their life, because they don't understand the way that ISO works or how to turn off flash, or what angles work, etc. Your images show the extent of the wear perfectly. So, to answer your question, no I do not think that your being here is premature at all. I find it sad that someone with so much good feedback cannot provide a realistic description of an item, and then provide a couple pictures of the areas that may not be up to par. That is what is not okay, not just with me but with the majority of the people that read and hang out here.

Imagine if we enforced a rule citing you must post pictures of the actual item? the Exchange volume in the individual section would be cut in half at least.

Edit:
This is a good example of why I am writing what I am writing. Not just my post, but the entire thread it hits a topic that has been happening a lot lately and we have to find a way to keep people honest and make people understand how to prevent mistakes when tey sell.
 
Last edited:
Imagine if we enforced a rule citing you must post pictures of the actual item? the Exchange volume in the individual section would be cut in half at least.

Edit:
This is a good example of why I am writing what I am writing. Not just my post, but the entire thread it hits a topic that has been happening a lot lately and we have to find a way to keep people honest and make people understand how to prevent mistakes when tey sell.
Last edited by RevDevil; Yesterday at 11:23 PM.



Enforcement of this issue is the difficult part.
I think that most of us would like to see some form of punishment be handed out to 'members' who use the resources that this forum offers to commit fraud, theft, and as in this case, grossly mis-represent items.


It's an easy place to prey on people, or just not really care too much about how you present something for sale.
As members in a 'community' which this forum is, there is always a sense that it's somehow 'safer' or more 'predictable' to buy items here, because we are all the same, or that we are a group of like minded individuals, or whatever is more psychologically comforting about being a 'member' of a group.

The truth is, and it's sad to say, that it's this higher level of trust that gets us into these types of situations.
At the end of the day, we are all names and avatars on a website. We all have post numbers and feedback ratings, but these are obviously not any indication of who we are, or where we stand morally.

There is no way to police the selling of items on this forum.
There can be rules, as there are, but asking the moderators to be judge and jury is a very difficult and complex position to put them in.

The only way to protect yourself from never having to deal with a situation similar to the OP's is to never trade or buy anything, and that's not going to happen.
We need to take it upon ourselves to do the best we can to avoid this crap, because there are too many really good people on this forum, and in the larger knife community, to let a small handful of idiots with a broken moral compass ruin what we love.

Make sure you see recent pictures, ask all the right questions, look at sales history, use PP properly, leave negative feedback if warranted, I could go on and on about doing your diligence but I think we all get it....

Doing everything you can to protect yourself as well as the tools provided by this forum doesn't mean that that all your deals will be smooth, and you will not end up in a situation like this, or worse.
But it greatly lessons the chances......
 
It takes just one incident like this to throw your credibility on BFC right into the toilet. After one works hard to establish a stellar record (71 positives) it is mind boggling a member (Gold) would knowingly do something like this for a freaking knife. I do not get it, do not understand it and wonder why Razor misrepresented a knife just to dump it. I recently sold most of my knives to guys I associate with and only did so because I needed money in a hurry. If a knife was carried and used it was a user and if a knife was brand new in the box it was described as such. All I have in this world is my integrity and credibility and I would rather give knives away than jeopardize it all by misrepresenting its' condition.............................................
 
I am in agreement with wolfman....why after building up a positive reputation...would a member in good standings simply..or haphazardly throw that away on a bad deal.?
I am quite puzzled by this but it does happen.
Situations (job loss, bills, addiction) push people into making poor choices
I once was that person many years ago..
Please dont misunderstand...I am not making excuses for whomever is responsible for this
transaction going south...
Many agree..If it was misrepresented...Simple as this...Deal Needs To Be Reversed!!!
Knife needs to be returned
Upon the knife being returned...
Money needs to be given back
The other party needs to pipe in here
The moderators are here too help. But most of us are adults and know right from wrong
This is a tight knit community of folks.We all depend on each other to enjoy our hobby.
I have my faults and make my mistakes...But as I stated earlier..Before buying..or trading..do your homework..Do Not Just Assume..
Connect with folks that have been around..ask upfront if you do not like the trade or purchase, may you return it..
As a norm..you should give them a bit of time to approve things on their end...then spend money and or leave
appropriate feedback...The reputation you build in here speaks of your integrity, character...and the beIief others have in you..
good luck working this out buddy..
Keith
 
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I told him I would give him his money back. Oh no, he had to leave a negative rating.
 
Razor said:
I told him I would give him his money back. Oh no, he had to leave a negative rating.
Click to expand...

That would have been avoidable entirely if you had just said, the blade was scratched up or shown some pictures from the get go.
 
Razor said:
I told him I would give him his money back. Oh no, he had to leave a negative rating.
Click to expand...

And you think misrepresenting the condition warrants what, a positive rating?

Or worse...................silence?

Whether the misrepresentation was intentional or an oversight, it happened. Maybe contrition is what needs to happen now?
 
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