Re: religious views

Y

yoippari

Joined
May 8, 2004
Messages
341
I won't name names here but if you have been following the ghost thread then you probably know what I am talking about.

Why is it ok for some one to say "I did some purification rituals to nip that at the bud..." but it is intolerant to voice Christian views? By saying that your ritual worked then you are basicly saying "I'm right." Same goes with saying that you are working on your karma, you believe that karma is real and you can earn your way into heaven, or a better next life, or whatever you believe will happen with enough karma.

On the most recent Last Comic Standing Todd Glass said that he believed in karma-- What goes around comes around. He walks up to people and bops them on the head and asks, "What did you do to deserve that?!" :D

By simply saying that you believe in something means that you think you are right, that's why it's called faith. Unless you believe that we are all correct in which case you probably don't really believe in any of it. Thats the difference between faith and religion.

Intolerance is a two way street. I wasn't being intolerant, just stating my beliefs.
 
One may say, "I'm right," without saying "You're wrong". *Most* of the world's religions are tolerant of other beliefs, as a matter of fact, and it is not uncommon to find someone holds a mixture of beliefs, none of which contradict another. Most Japanese, for instance, are Shinto-Buddhist. Many Chinese are Buddhist-Daoist-Confuscionist.

There are Christians- and in my perception, they are more truly "Christlike" than most "Believers"- who manage to engage in conversations about paranormal phenomenon without interjecting anywhere their beliefs under color of religious truth. NO ONE HERE OBJECTS to someone saying (for instance) "I felt an evil presence and deep fear. I prayed to God, and the presence and evil left me."

We're adults. Most of us have been in the workforce for years, some have served our country, and probably all of us have seen the reality of death touching those we love. We're here to talk about knives and life with our friends, not to be preached at, especially when some of us already know more
about the systems they claim to believe than those who usually try to sway us.

If you need to write me directly, my email is JRayShirley@yahoo.com. Attempts to convert me will not succeed (indeed, are specifically commanded against by Jesus), but I'll be happy to talk, if you want.

John
 
It's past midnite, so I'm not at the top of my powers of mental acuity.

But I reviewed the "Ghost" thread and offhand didn't spot any comments directed at you. I did notice several comments of bad experiences with so-called or alleged Christian behaviors by others.

The Americas and Western Europe, etc., from which this forum draws most of it's participants have various forms of Christianity as the most common religion. I have not interacted to any extent with, Jains, Hindus, Sikhs, etc., so am not equipped to critique them. I do have broad exposure to poor examples of professed Christians. And I'm guessing that the experience of those who had negative comments on the Christian faith is similar.

Sorry, but I didn't see any foul to call.
 
I like to hear difft. peoples takes on things thru the filter of their religious beliefs as long as they are not telling anyone they are going to h*ll or otherwise condemning them.
 
yoippari said:
Why is it ok for some one to say "I did some purification rituals to nip that at the bud..." but it is intolerant to voice Christian views? By saying that your ritual worked then you are basicly saying "I'm right
Click to expand...

Rituals work for a lot of reasons. I consider myself to be mostly Christian but I think that rituals specific to other faiths work too. I consider manipulation of the unknown to actually be somewhat of a scientific process that we really haven't figured out yet. Religions give various rules figured out by sages over the ages on how to successfuly interact with the unknown and not get hurt and hopefully get results. So for me that is kind of how I explain it to myself. ;)
 
I welcome demonstrations of Christian Faith. Makes me feel better. Pappy, myself, too many others to name have made such reference.


I don't believe they have ever been unwelcome.

I've never read of a problem here.

Spectre, and no doubt others, are sensitive to this issue, though not intolerant.




munk
 
I'm actually happy to see belief systems that work for people, whatever they claim to believe. If they're happy, healthy, and interact positively with people, what they believe MUST be right for them. :) Who am I to know what is right for anyone besides myself?

John
 
I think Spectre has it right.
I guess I'm a skeptic or slightly agnostic. I was raised Catholic, I'm generally atheist but I keep an open mind- I don't know what's out there, so I'm not making my decision.
I do tend to think that positive thoughts and attitude either breed good results, or at least make you more capable of dealing with the bad. That's about as spiritual as I get. I do take offense to anti-religious rants, specifically the internet hobby of Christian bashing, because I respect people's religious beliefs.
 
Even when I was an Atheist I was glad Christians were around. And I don't mean I was snide or patronizing about it- They had a geniune joy, the whole society did, and this made it good and right they should live and have children. You could not seperate Church from State; the religion is a part of living. I see the entire, the 'whole' needs this.


munk
 
I'll impose on all you good natured folks here with a couple of comments, if I may.

I think many who consider themselves Christians are sensitive to what seems to be a world wide attack on Christianity. Interesting when you consider that Christianity covers a wide spectrum, from Strident Evangelists to cloistered Nuns under vows of silence.

I've learned to discriminate between the temporal, organised religions and the beliefs and behavior that is personal to each and everyone of us.

Organised Islam is perhaps the least tolerant of any major world religion, yet I've known kind, tolerant, and gentle moslems. the same for the other "brand name" religions. And I've known members of all who were, shall we say, perhaps not the best representatives.

We generalise and label accordingly, even when we know our generalisations are not, indeed cannot, be viable for all people and all conditions.

I personally dislike anyone trying to "sell" me on any religion, or political beliefs, i think most people are the same. Basically I dislike what I call "Professional" anything, People who seem to make their belief or their ancestory, their wealth or their club membership their overriding Identity.

That said, I wish them well and I'm glad they've found some "anchor" in their world.

I think the religious label a person subscribes to is often a very different thing from the faith and belief found in his heart.

I try to always remember a phrase I was taught a very long time ago,

"People who matter don't judge and people who judge don't matter."

It's worked pretty well for me over the last 60 years or so.

Thanks for the opportunity to express this.

Gary
 
Thanks, Gary.

Islam is, unfortunately, well known for its most extreme members, but as I understand it, Islam is more accepting of some other faiths than Christianity. For instance, I believe that Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet, whereas Christians typically believe that Muhammad was just a guy, or worse, a "false prophet".

Truthfully, Christianity leads easily to an exclusivist view, with such references as John 14:6, John 3:17-18, and John 3:36. Of course, I much prefer that Christians pay more attention to such verses as Mark 9:40, Matt 7:16-20, and Rom 14:22.

Like so much else, people can make what they want of the Bible.

Rom 14:4; 2 Timothy 2:15

John
 
To quote William James on his 3 criteria for truth:

CONGRUENCE
USEFULNESS
LUMINOSITY

And in the "out of the mouths of babes" department come this definition of "myth" by a little girl:

"A MYTH IS A STORY THAT'S TRUE ON THE INSIDE."

I'm sure all religions have much to teach of useful insights about living life and experiencing the "really real".

As I related before, one of the greatest of Catholic contemplatives was Thomas Merton whose The Seven Story Mountain is a modernday classic. He died of a fall in the bathroom shortly before he was to enter a Buddhist monastery for a year. Not as a rejection of his faith but as a guided experience in contemplative techniques to allow him to enhance and draw closer to the passionate and loving God of his faith.
 
Rusty said:
To quote William James on his 3 criteria for truth:

CONGRUENCE
USEFULNESS
LUMINOSITY

And in the "out of the mouths of babes" department come this definition of "myth" by a little girl:

"A MYTH IS A STORY THAT'S TRUE ON THE INSIDE."

I'm sure all religions have much to teach of useful insights about living life and experiencing the "really real".

As I related before, one of the greatest of Catholic contemplatives was Thomas Merton whose The Seven Story Mountain is a modernday classic. He died of a fall in the bathroom shortly before he was to enter a Buddhist monastery for a year. Not as a rejection of his faith but as a guided experience in contemplative techniques to allow him to enhance and draw closer to the passionate and loving God of his faith.
Click to expand...

Hey Rusty,

Ever read Mertons "Zen and the Birds of Appetite?
 
I flipped through, "Birds of North America" once and looked at the pictures. I recognized many of the birds.



munk
 
Spectre said:
Thanks, Gary.

Islam is, unfortunately, well known for its most extreme members, but as I understand it, Islam is more accepting of some other faiths than Christianity. For instance, I believe that Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet, whereas Christians typically believe that Muhammad was just a guy, or worse, a "false prophet".

John
Click to expand...

How true. When Jews were facing the flames in Spain, they fled from Europe to Islamic countries. Some rose to high positions in government, commerce, and education. What is happening now appears more political/nationalistic than truly religious.

Tom
 
Yoip, I think HD and Spec et al. are on the right track. Seeing as it was me you quoted, I feel I should explain myself.

Self truths:
"your ritual worked then you are basicly saying "I'm right." ---Yes, and no. I'm saying it was right for me. We all make our own spiritual paths in the world. No one can govern the spirit but its beholder, and dat's the right way. My beliefs in no way invalidate the beliefs of Hindus, Buddhists, or Christians (many who've talked Spirituality with me can find some common ground, some core system of good turns and honor, etc). Only three religions that I know have exclusivist doctrines that claim to hold the reigns on spirituality, religion, etc, so let's not assume by tribalist polythist heathen ways are like those at all.
As a polytheist, I now call honor to any number of gods I choose, or none at all. I'll letcha in on a personal secret--not all the gods I fane are Norse/Germanic in nature--sometimes I'll honor NDN traditions or customs, perhaps pour wine out for a Celtic god, or honor the spirit or "is-ness of a particular place, animal, etc. I'll honor the Sun and the Moon, for they are surely Gods to us all ("cut off from the Sun we can do nothing:D)...


Faith:
"By simply saying that you believe in something means that you think you are right, that's why it's called faith."---Yoip, I am a faithless man by that definition. I can be jaded, a skeptic, a doubter, someone who cannot trust a whim or a dream (not all heathens are like this, just me here). I hold certain self-truths, have had visions of my ancestors, many truly religious and enlightening moments that I definitely call "religious experiences", but no faith was required in any of these. Faith would be like "Hey, if I'm really good in the eyes of Odin, I might get into Valhalla!" A trite example, I know, but illustrative of an essential difference in Christianity vs. Heathenism-- My gods don't particualarly care if I sink or swim, it's me beating my head against this world that shapes me...giving myself to myself, not giving me to someone else. This requires only faith in Myself, which is exaclty what my gods (and goddesses, can't leave them out!) want me to have. Once again, this does not invalidate anything you may believe, I hope. I'm still talking personal truths here.


"Unless you believe that we are all correct in which case you probably don't really believe in any of it."--As time goes by, I think we are all correct, and we are all wrong.. All of our beliefs are all right for ourselves, and it's fun when you find others who believe like you, but it is not for us to point and jeer at others who are different...we must accept that humanity is a broad and colorful cloth, and the religious/spiritual beliefs we hold are threads in the weave as well.

Well, I blah blah blahed a bunch. Sorry to bore yall. Yoip, there's much more to be told, but I don't have time to write it, most of it may not interest you, and I can only provide my opinions and experiences...

Keith
 
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