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Reactions to Guns, Knives, etc.
- Thread starter MikeH
- Start date
This story (in the topic post) is a great example why making it hard/illegal/taboo for good people to carry guns is backwards thinking. What do you do when a bad person shows up with one (and they will, because bad people don't follow policy)?!?
And the same applies to knives, of course. Only more so since knives are practical tools used for things other than self defense.
And the same applies to knives, of course. Only more so since knives are practical tools used for things other than self defense.
Unless your dog is a trained guard dog, it won't help.brownshoe said:I don't need a gun...I've got a pit bull. Legal to carry. Wakes up first if someone comes into the house. Keeps your feet warm in the winter. The intimidation factor alone is enough to make someone go to next door to rob.
Dogs virtually never prevent robbery and acording to virtually all *GOOD* house thieves, are not a deterent in any way. A crackhead that wants to break in and find 5 bucks might be scared away, though.
An alarm will protect you. A dog will usually not (unless highly trained).
It is amazing how many dog owners think their dog will be a great guard dog and will protect them or their house from a robbery. In reality, unless you dog has been extensively trained, it won't help at all.
But of course, I'm sure your dog is special.
Actually, the dog is very often STOLEN in home robberies.
Again though, I will concede that a dog can scare off bonehead unexperienced thieves, but such types usually don't go far from their own home/neighborhood. So if you live in a crackhead area, you should have an alarm, which is far better than a dog at protecting your home.
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brownshoe said:I don't need a gun...I've got a pit bull. Legal to carry. Wakes up first if someone comes into the house. Keeps your feet warm in the winter. The intimidation factor alone is enough to make someone go to next door to rob.
*POP-POP*: two shots from a $100 .38 Snub, and your human loving family pet is no longer a threat to the burgler (not that it would have been anyway). A Serious criminal will them empty the three remaining rounds into your defensless arse.
Now, Had you been waiting for him with your Mossberg and 7+1 rounds of 000 buck or 3" slugs (your choice), the outcome may have been different
I think a dog would be good self defense against anyone armed. Dogs have a lot of advantages over people, they have a much higher tolerance for pain, they are very fast, and they can tear out your throat effortlessly. My mom's hand was very badly torn up from a bite from a little poodle. If a poodle can do that kind of damage I don't want to think about what a pit bull can do. I wouldn't use an animal as self defense though, because it's not nice to subject your pet to that kind of danger. It's like those people who train their service dogs to jump out in front of cars and take the impact for them. So if a car is going twords the blind person the dog will jump in front of them and the dog will die. It's hard for me to believe that this will really make the blind person much safer.
linzoy, if they dog is trained, you are VERY right.
But a normal pet dog, no matter what breed it is, will not know what a gun is.
I have a ton of respect for dogs and dog trainers. I love dogs and am amazed at how smart they can be, and how loyal they are. But without training, a dog had no concept of what a gun is.
In reality, when someone breaks into a home, dogs will usually follow them around, curious of the new person in the house. Or follow them around and bark. Neighbors rarely investigate a barking dog.
A lot of people think "my dog is visous! if someone breaks in, my dog will kill them", but unless their dog has actually attacked a robber, or been trained to do so, they are just guessing.
But a normal pet dog, no matter what breed it is, will not know what a gun is.
I have a ton of respect for dogs and dog trainers. I love dogs and am amazed at how smart they can be, and how loyal they are. But without training, a dog had no concept of what a gun is.
In reality, when someone breaks into a home, dogs will usually follow them around, curious of the new person in the house. Or follow them around and bark. Neighbors rarely investigate a barking dog.
A lot of people think "my dog is visous! if someone breaks in, my dog will kill them", but unless their dog has actually attacked a robber, or been trained to do so, they are just guessing.
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The idea that dogs are useless is nonsense. First, they do serve as good early warning systems. Second, they may not recognize a gun but they *will* pick up on an owner's emotional state and defend. I have seen it happen. In fact, I have seen a college roommate's great dane chase off guy on the street who was verbally (and borderline physically) assaulting a woman. The dog did not know the woman, but wanted to protect her (my friend did not dissuade his dog!). Third, many people, including many criminals, are afraid of dogs. A visible dog is a far better deterrent for that substantial fraction of the populace than a concealed firearm.
All that said, my house is too small, and my schedule is too busy, to responsibly keep a dog. Hence the CCW, 9 mm (customized SW 3913) .45 ACP (Glock 36), and Mossberg 500 pump.
All that said, my house is too small, and my schedule is too busy, to responsibly keep a dog. Hence the CCW, 9 mm (customized SW 3913) .45 ACP (Glock 36), and Mossberg 500 pump.
No one ever said they were useless. Read my post again. I said they are damn near useless, but not useless. It's not nonsense. It's reality. It's based on facts and home robbery statistics.
Do a little research.
I wish I saved the links and could scan the pages, but I did not and cannot. However, what I say is true. Yeah, it is silly when someone says "what I say is backed up by stats and facts" and doesn't give sources. Sorry, but I am not writting a reseach paper here. But I have no reason to lie. I love dogs as much as anyone here and am just relating to you what I know is true. You can believe me, or not believe me. But don't call it nonsense when you really have no proof one way or the other and are just guessing.
Alarms help very much. Dogs help very little. If someone's primary means of home defense is a dog, they are making a very big mistake and are sadly misinformed.
As I said, the dog may scare away petty, inexperienced criminals (which are actually VERY rare in all but very poor neighborhoods), but not much more than that. If someone breaks into your home, the dog won't stop them in almost all cases, and there is a chance they will steal the dog as well.
Lastly, your examples are just single examples, and not trends. And your dog will only know your emotional state if you are home. Home invasion robberies are much more rare than break-ins when no one is home, and home invasion robbers are often armed/prepared. gun >>>> dog.
But hey, believe whatever you want.
Do a little research.
I wish I saved the links and could scan the pages, but I did not and cannot. However, what I say is true. Yeah, it is silly when someone says "what I say is backed up by stats and facts" and doesn't give sources. Sorry, but I am not writting a reseach paper here. But I have no reason to lie. I love dogs as much as anyone here and am just relating to you what I know is true. You can believe me, or not believe me. But don't call it nonsense when you really have no proof one way or the other and are just guessing.
Alarms help very much. Dogs help very little. If someone's primary means of home defense is a dog, they are making a very big mistake and are sadly misinformed.
As I said, the dog may scare away petty, inexperienced criminals (which are actually VERY rare in all but very poor neighborhoods), but not much more than that. If someone breaks into your home, the dog won't stop them in almost all cases, and there is a chance they will steal the dog as well.
Lastly, your examples are just single examples, and not trends. And your dog will only know your emotional state if you are home. Home invasion robberies are much more rare than break-ins when no one is home, and home invasion robbers are often armed/prepared. gun >>>> dog.
But hey, believe whatever you want.
Esav Benyamin
MidniteSuperMod
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Meanwhile, single examples are still reality. Trained dogs aren't all that rare, either. I know from my own experience that dogs my wife and I raised and trained were an effective deterrent against break-ins and threats on the street.Hair said:
As in so many threads, we are all talking right on past each other. The whole dog thing got started by one man talking about his pit bull, and other people talking about dogs in general. I'll take his word on what he can expect from his actual, real-life, dog.
I won't. Dog owners tend to expect far too much from their dogs when it comes to home defense.
If I were to take his word for it, then I would also have to take people's word for it when they say their car does 0-60 in 3 seconds. Yeah, some of them are right, but not very many.
I hope he is right, for his sake. But going by chance, he's probably not.
Single examples are reality, but only a very small portion of it. I know someone that ate a peanut and got sick. Does that mean you will?
I never said trained dogs were all that rare. I said *unless* his dog *IS* trained... well, you know the rest.
If I were to take his word for it, then I would also have to take people's word for it when they say their car does 0-60 in 3 seconds. Yeah, some of them are right, but not very many.
I hope he is right, for his sake. But going by chance, he's probably not.
Single examples are reality, but only a very small portion of it. I know someone that ate a peanut and got sick. Does that mean you will?
I never said trained dogs were all that rare. I said *unless* his dog *IS* trained... well, you know the rest.
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Sorry to help hijack this post, BUT I couldn't help but relate this story.
1983, rural San Bernardino County, (now part of the city of Ranch Cucamonga), about 11PM, my pal John gets a call on his phone:
Mr. ********
Yes
This is San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department, could you you allow the Deputies outside to apprehend the people in your yard?
OK, sure
Well, you are going to have to restrain your dogs first.
What had happened was a burglar had hit a house at the end of the block and escaping, jumped fence and wall after fence and wall, until he got to John's house. John's dogs, (three, no purebreds, mutts all),surrounded the crook and wouldn't let him out of the yard. The Deputies came in through the house and hooked up the bad guy.
John later told me that one of the SBCS guys complimented him on his dog training skills. Hah hah', John said, 'them dogs ain't trained any more than I am.
Fact is dogs are territorial, most are protective of their space, and all should give you time to shoulder your 870. Much better than life without.
1983, rural San Bernardino County, (now part of the city of Ranch Cucamonga), about 11PM, my pal John gets a call on his phone:
Mr. ********
Yes
This is San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department, could you you allow the Deputies outside to apprehend the people in your yard?
OK, sure
Well, you are going to have to restrain your dogs first.
What had happened was a burglar had hit a house at the end of the block and escaping, jumped fence and wall after fence and wall, until he got to John's house. John's dogs, (three, no purebreds, mutts all),surrounded the crook and wouldn't let him out of the yard. The Deputies came in through the house and hooked up the bad guy.
John later told me that one of the SBCS guys complimented him on his dog training skills. Hah hah', John said, 'them dogs ain't trained any more than I am.
Fact is dogs are territorial, most are protective of their space, and all should give you time to shoulder your 870. Much better than life without.
brownshoe said:I don't need a gun...I've got a pit bull. Legal to carry. Wakes up first if someone comes into the house. Keeps your feet warm in the winter. The intimidation factor alone is enough to make someone go to next door to rob.
PutBulls are not legal here..
lol
Esav Benyamin
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Wherever "here" is. (You didn't say.)clone7 said:
He didn't say you should get one. Only that it worked for him.
That they aren't legal is inane. Banning the item rather than the behavior is counterproductive. Not funny.
We have 2 boxers, that many bad guys think are tall pit bulls. Completely different dog, but I never share that while on the street.
Without a doubt, these 2 will wake your a** up in the middle of the night if they hear anything, giving you time to grab your firearm of choice.
I'm sure that a true professional thief would be able to gain access during the day and kill my dogs etc., but there is nothing in my home of enough value to warrant the risk to that type of thief. And as someone noted they are valuable and could be stolen so they are always left in the house. Plus we have plenty of housewives watching everything in the court during the day!
It's unbelievable how the 2 dogs naturally watch the home, one at the front door, one on a catwalk looking out the back. One will sleep downstairs and one upstairs. They may be smarter than we think!
I'm very happy that my neighbors on both sides have dogs. Those dogs are also part of my "pack" in that they talk to my dogs. Great early warning system.
It's pretty clear that many of my neighbors are ex-military, and w/all the dogs, probably 9 out of 10 homes, no crime issues yet.
CG
Without a doubt, these 2 will wake your a** up in the middle of the night if they hear anything, giving you time to grab your firearm of choice.
I'm sure that a true professional thief would be able to gain access during the day and kill my dogs etc., but there is nothing in my home of enough value to warrant the risk to that type of thief. And as someone noted they are valuable and could be stolen so they are always left in the house. Plus we have plenty of housewives watching everything in the court during the day!
It's unbelievable how the 2 dogs naturally watch the home, one at the front door, one on a catwalk looking out the back. One will sleep downstairs and one upstairs. They may be smarter than we think!
I'm very happy that my neighbors on both sides have dogs. Those dogs are also part of my "pack" in that they talk to my dogs. Great early warning system.
It's pretty clear that many of my neighbors are ex-military, and w/all the dogs, probably 9 out of 10 homes, no crime issues yet.
CG
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America doesn't hate you guys, America (or at least the people who use their brains) hates the a$$holes who put people like you into that situation in the first place.Twindog said:
As for the soldiers themselves (people in your shoes), those of us who actually think about it have compassion, not hate.
A.
puukkoman said:
I added my comment as an aside, maybe too bitter, and do not want to hijack the thread, which is now partly a dog v. weapon thread.
Back on topic: People react badly to big knives and guns in general for a very understandable reason: fear of the unknown in a new situation. As any combat vet or street cop can tell you, the most dangerous person is the person whom you don't know is a threat. No matter how many guns you have, no matter how big and tough you are, any 98-pounder (the typical VC, remember) with half a brain, a gun, a knife or a pipe wrench and bad intentions can take you out before you even know you're in danger. (As others have said, dogs are invaluable for alerting you to danger, partly because they are so good at discerning intentions.)
When people see someone carrying a big knife or a gun in a place where such carry is out of normal context, like the office, they are naturally going to worry -- some too much, some not enough. A hundred cops milling around, each with a gun, will not worry most people. But if a street person walks into a grocery store with a machete or a shotgun, their entrance is going to draw a lot of concerned looks.
When people see someone carrying a weapon -- a gun or an unusually large or tactical-looking knife -- in a place where such carry is way out of the norm, they are going to worry. We should recognize that concern as a normal reaction and not put those people in that situation.
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In the spirit of highjacking the thread (which often ends up being just as interesting IMO), I have had friends of mine who worked in law enforcement say that dogs are a HUGE deterrent to break-ins. And most break ins are not done by professionals.
Your .45 is a great deterence to an invader, but only if you are there, prepared to use it. Your dog is going to be a deterence even if you aren't. The Colt only "barks," after all, if you make it.
That said, my Colt and my Jack Russell share the bed with me at night, so don't listen to me...
Your .45 is a great deterence to an invader, but only if you are there, prepared to use it. Your dog is going to be a deterence even if you aren't. The Colt only "barks," after all, if you make it.
That said, my Colt and my Jack Russell share the bed with me at night, so don't listen to me...
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maximus otter said:
JUNK! I was going to post that!
As a side note I used to work for a major alarm company. With regard to an alarm being better than a dog or gun for that matter ill put it this way. The average police response time was 15 minutes (and getting worse), and the average burgular is only in the house 9 minutes.
Add to that the fact that the police are refusing to respond to house alarms in many more areas (due to so many false alarms) and I fail to see why an alarm is any good at all. in fact what seemed to have the best deturrent effect regarding alarms was the $.50 window stickers. Ill take my mossberg 590, my AK, or my SIG any day over an alarm. Early warning dog is and has always been the best alarm ask those who served in vietnam about them, and while your at it tell them I said thanks for their service and sacrifice.
Add to that the fact that the police are refusing to respond to house alarms in many more areas (due to so many false alarms) and I fail to see why an alarm is any good at all. in fact what seemed to have the best deturrent effect regarding alarms was the $.50 window stickers. Ill take my mossberg 590, my AK, or my SIG any day over an alarm. Early warning dog is and has always been the best alarm ask those who served in vietnam about them, and while your at it tell them I said thanks for their service and sacrifice.