Real life vs Legend

[JAB]

Cool. I see I really need to get over this fear of carrying Wood Handled slip joints because I get the knives I work with rain and snow soaked at times.

Yup, can't help but notice all the great condition ebony-handled beauties that keep popping up in the "Old Knives" thread.

 

[brandonc]

I have been taught by my father that you always need too carry at least two knives in the field, typically a "belt knife" and a "pocket knife." Not only do you have different blades for different tasks, but if one gets dull you instantly have a sharper knife, plus a backup if you have to lone it to someone. A pair of knife blades can also be used as tweezers for removing cacti or slivers. I believe philosophy is shared by most experienced outdoorsman, including the wilderness frontiersmen. In the territories they did mostly carry simple folders and basic fixed blades but a few of ones who could afford the hand-made forged blades would have certainly purchased them, knives were a mountain mans most valuable tool. The custom knife is not an invention of the 20th century.

 

[kamagong]

Archaeology is a good way to learn about the material objects actually used in the past. You might be interested in the Steamboat Arabia Museum, with its displays of the excavated contents of a frontier steamboat's cargo from 1856, preserved in the mud of the Missouri River.

There's some nice stag in that pic.

I wonder if that picture is truly representative. After all it is the excavated contents of the ship's cargo, not the personal knives of the passengers. Those knives could be a shipment of Sheffield knives on their way to St. Louis for sale. I'm not saying that folding knives weren't used back then, they obviously were. It's just that I am sure that fixed blades, as well as folders, were commonly used. Then, just as today, each man's made his choices due to a number of factors -- intended use, environment, financial means, etc.

- Christian

 

[zerogee]

I'm sure many frontiersmen carried (or at least had handy) a large fixed blade and a folder and often a tomahawk (note, decent small axes were rare back then, which Sears (Nessmuk) pointed out - he even had to get one custom made to get a decent one - so if you wanted a small light axe (and you really would want one, far from everything), the tomahawk was the ticket). Their larger fixed blade would often be something like the so called "scalper" (straight back, gradually curved edge coming up to meet the point - really rather similar to a slim French chef's knife - or a butchers knife - the important point was that they were thin - scalpers were about 1/16" thick (a heavier duty version of it was still only about 3/32" thick, but wasn't nearly as popular since it cost about twice what the 1/16" thick knives did).

As far as violence (apart from just getting drunk and fighting for fun) - much of that goes away when people are not packed together, rubbing up against each other's nerves all the time. You can put up with just about anybody for a little while every few weeks -- especially when you can simply walk or ride out of earshot to effectively be rid of them. Also everyone had guns -- someone stupid and crazy enough to shoot up a town would soon be quite dead -- official cause of death: "he needed killing" (basically assisted suicide) - and fast draw doesn't mean crap to a shot in the back or a knife in the dark.

 

[zerogee]

I wonder if that picture is truly representative. After all it is the excavated contents of the ship's cargo, not the personal knives of the passengers. Those knives could be a shipment of Sheffield knives on their way to St. Louis for sale. I'm not saying that folding knives weren't used back then, they obviously were. It's just that I am sure that fixed blades, as well as folders, were commonly used. Then, just as today, each man's made his choices due to a number of factors -- intended use, environment, financial means, etc.

- Christian

These were all going UP the river, in fact on the western side of the state from St Louis when it sunk -- they were already well headed out into the frontier. There were also lots of fixed blades packed in barrels too on the ship -- it's just this image is of the folders packed in barrels. There were many more knives than they can display at once - this picture is only a sampling, even of just the folders.

 

[ThundarStick]

Someone in my family is in possesion of a medium size tooth pick (I think CASE, but I was very young), that I was told was used to stab someone to death and was handed off to my Grandfather who hid it away. My brother and I stumbeled upon it while snooping where we had no bussness and nearly took a beating for it. I also work in an enviroment where I have seen deaths from a single stab wound from a small kitchen knife and a small folder. I have also seen folks in slicing knige fights where hundreds and hundreds of stiches where needed to close the wounds. If you think of how a stab wound into the guts ment certin death from bacterial infection back then, I'm sure no one wanted to be in a knife fight! It just don't take a lot to kill someone! I'm sure the order of combat then would be about the same as today. Shoot first, use an axe, hatchet, or sword next and a knife as a last resort.
Davie Crockett recorded killing many bear around this county, reportedly with what we would consider a butchers knife.
As far as thickness of the blade, I think most all knives, especially fixed blade, are way too thick for a general skinning and meat processing knife.

 

[A. G. Russell]

I've commented before, on the ironic fact that Texas has outlawed Bowie knives. I didn't fully understand why, especially considering the Bowie's legendary status in the home of the Alamo. But, I finally read that it happened in the years just folllowing the civil war, I think. I would've assumed, as with most restrictive knife laws, that it had been enacted sometime in the 20th century. But even back in the late 1800s, the Bowie was apparently implicated in too many violent incidents & fights. So, even back when men were truly MEN, they thought the Bowie to be just a bit too much, in Texas at least.

Apparently, the Bowie knife was also dimly viewed in other parts of the South, going as far back as the 1830s. Here's a quote from Wiki (linked below):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowie_knife#Legal_status

It is true that many states outlawed the "Bowie" knife in the 1800s. This is because they were widely carried and used. It is also true that every man, and many ladies, carried folders. Just because the "elite" restricted themselves to pen knives did not mean that ordanariy folks did not carry big knives. Hard to believe today, the stories of bowies carried in tail coats. Read the stories of bowie fights on the floor of the state house of California.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

It is true that many states outlawed the "Bowie" knife in the 1800s. This is because they were widely carried and used. It is also true that every man, and many ladies, carried folders. Just because the "elite" restricted themselves to pen knives did not mean that ordanariy folks did not carry big knives. Hard to believe today, the stories of bowies carried in tail coats. Read the stories of bowie fights on the floor of the state house of California.

Some C-SPAN-style video coverage of the 'political process' would've been a LOT more interesting to watch, back then.

 

[Amos Iron Wolf]

There's some nice stag in that pic.
- Christian

You beat me to it. I was too busy drooling over some of those stag scales. Wow.

Another good source to find what was used is to dig around what serious modern buckskinners carry with their outfits. The serious guys are very serious about authenticity in their rendezvous gear. There has been some heavy research in that arena on any of the gear then.

Even as far back as the Revolutionary War large, single blade clasp knives were common.

Interesting when you think about it. The Bowie knife back then was the assault rifle of today with so many trying to ban them. The sad part is that last time I checked the tomahawk was also on the prohibited weapons list for Texas. Machetes are okay, just not the 'hawk. Stupid by my account as a tomahawk is a very useful tool.

As other's have noted, basic butcher knives would have been a mountain man staple, both for use and for trade. Think about the life of the mountain man. Safe to say that most of them spent more time skinning fur bearers or game than they did fighting. A knife that didn't do a good job as a skinner and utility knife wasn't good to carry.

I think it was Nessmuk (memory is sketchy on this) I think who wrote about hunting with the Apache and remarked that they basically used 5 inch butcher knives sharpened on one side only (easier to resharpen).

Speaking of Mr. Sears, here is a page from his book that shows his basic blade kit: http://www.zianet.com/jgray/nessmuk/woodcraft/chapter02.html

Here is the link to the book "Woodcraft by Nessmuk" that you can read online. http://www.zianet.com/jgray/nessmuk/woodcraft/title_page.html