Real Stickfighting

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Ray Langley

Joined
Oct 14, 2000
Messages
56
Striking versus Joint-Locks.

There is currently a heated controversy on my PerfectWeapon list on yahoogroups.com about the effectiveness of striking/thrusting with the Cane/Stick versus various types of controlling/locking/chin-na type techniques.

The opinions on both sides are strong and somewhat heated. At one end of the spectrum, thekuntawman (Maurice Gatdula) states, "These type of moves work best on an opponent who is already dead or knocked out!"

At the other end of the disagreement, another person says, "If you are in a situation where a controlling technique is needed and you don't know how to do it in a fighting situation, then you have just painted yourself into a corner."

My belief at my current level of training and knowledge prompts me to say, "If the joint locks (pretzel moves) are reputedly so darn good then why haven't even one of the Dog Brothers video-taped fights been won by using one or more of these techniques?"

I realize that there is a time and a place for techniques that control, rather than all out mayhem. I realize that no one here would crush Uncle Bob's head at the family reunion for getting too rowdy. But, if someone is trying to put your lights out with a pool cue, broken beer bottle, knife, etc., would you use impact techniques, or would you choose some type of "lock'em up" moves?

Keep in mind that I am talking about *fighting* with sticks/canes when the adrenalin is flowing. I would very much appreciate the opinions of those who actually fight with sticks.

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http://pub48.ezboard.com/bcaneknifestick
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ray Langley:
Striking versus Joint-Locks.
thekuntawman (Maurice Gatdula) states, "These type of moves work best on an opponent who is already dead or knocked out!"</font>
Click to expand...

Amen

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">"If the joint locks (pretzel moves) are reputedly so darn good then why haven't even one of the Dog Brothers video-taped fights been won by using one or more of these techniques?"</font>
Click to expand...
As you can see on the new DB tape " a gathering of the pack", some guys can take pretty hard shots to the tougher parts of the skull (forehead, top). That's why we hit horizontally to the temple whenever possible.
If you don't want to be too rude, hit hands elbows and knees.
Bye
Kurt



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Money talks...but all mine ever says is good-bye.

www.selbstverteidigung.org

Some Knife's
 
I think Maurice is partially correct. It's only good manners to serve your guest an appetizer while they're waiting for dinner
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When it came to practical application, my old aikijujutsu teacher was a firm believer in using a strike or two to ensure they were properly distracted.

Although as a rule of thumb, I believe there's a time and place for everything, I see a problem with grappling as it's often applied and that's complexity. The more complex a technique (striking or grappling)the more likely you are to screw it up under pressure.

Whatever you do, make it simple, make it quick and make it nasty
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Respectfully,

Dave Fulton



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Full Contact Martial Arts Association.

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."
 
I am not well versed in FMA, and I'm not sure if you mean joint locks while standing or groundfighting. But I do recall reading an article in Martial Arts Illustrated a couple years ago. In the article Marc Denny(of the Dog Brothers,as if you didn't know)said that in their competitions they do use "stick-grappling." And I know that some great FMA instructors teach joint locking techniques, such as Dionisio "Cacoy" Canete. "Judo" Gene LeBell has even written a book that covers, exclusively, controlling techniques with a stick(No strikes). And I'm sure there are others. Again, I have not trained much in any of these systems so these are just observations.


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POBOY

[This message has been edited by poboy (edited 02-02-2001).]
 
From a mean street perspective (well, actually the streets I worked weren't all that mean) I was never able to apply a control technique on anyone who was in fighting mode until they had been softened up considerably.

So I instructed floks in my classes to not attempt wrist locks, arm bars, hair holds etc. on a persons who was squared off and combative unless there was some large physical disparity or you just really liked getting poked in the nose or worse, eye.

Those are my thoughts FWIW.

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Si Vis Pacern Parabellum
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
 
As someone who has used hundreds of joint locks in street situations, I would say that if the BG is "throwin' 'em" you had better soften him up a bit with a few strikes. Why not use the best advantage that the stick gives you, range & speed. If the guy has a weapon, be direct and brutal in your attack. Finish it fast. The most amount of damage in the least amount of time.

Your goal should be to try to disengage, but if you need to end the fight by controlling the BG then you should have an understanding of how the joint locks fit into the flow of combat. There may be an opening to apply a lock that allows you to decisively end the conflict with a few follow up strikes. Why not take it?

For lower levels of force like Uncle Bob having a bit too much to drink, stick/empty hand joint locks should work fine.

My $0.02

Steve

[This message has been edited by steve22595 (edited 02-04-2001).]
 
Hello Everyone,
This is always a great controversial topic, but it must be addresses. In a combative situation there is always "Level of Threat" which dictates the tactics that will be used to counter that threat. As for joint control situations, these happen, but not always in the context of a sparring match or mutually skilled combat. Control of the attacking weapon, or removing that weapon threat is a major concern in a life or death situation. It does not always play out in sparring because of the mutual level of wanting to better my opponent(beat him or in other words win the match). We need this type of aggresive training in order to test our striking ability, but many times you see the opportunity for choking and throwing when sparring, occasionally you see the opportunity for an armbar, or body crush(works real well in sparring). In a lower level threat situation as in the drunken friend, uncooperative suspect(LE, or Bouncer work) joint manipulation is a vital skill.
all the best
Steve
 
I think that extensive sparring with a focus on competition, can actually hurt a person's skill level in this way.

Things can be discarded that will work on the street that will never work in a ring.

You can have certain feints and combinations that training partners can get used to or you can become "known" for using. The result is, the feint or a combination will fail once this happens and when you discard it, you have discarded something incredibly valuable.

In many ways, this is a cross-reference to the "NHB" thread and all of the hypotheticals that come with it.

If you are speaking about being an Escrimador, in the highest sense of the word, then you are going to have to go up against some incredibly skilled, tough and savvy people.

What is often considered useless or superfluous in a competition, has worked wonderfully in the street. Who are we fighting?

The flip side to that is, what is often superfluous in more traditional martial arts remains superfluous, like attempting to kick a man in his head when he has a knife in motion. Yeah, if he is down on all fours like a dog trying to get back up, that is viable, how it is taught in TKD is a joke.

I have bounced this around for years...who am I fighting? Jim Keating, Kelly Worden, insert your favorite name there in a line...I'm never going to get mugged by a hardcore "NHB Fighter" unless they take up smoking crack or something.

This must be tempered with not training for the "lowest common denominator" either, in other words, don't train to only meet morons on the street exclusively.

As for locks using a stick, wrist, elbow and finger locks, arm bars, all of these things have their place in the proper context and venue as everyone has suggested.

I would also agree that in my experience, you need to bust someone up before you lock them up.



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"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.
 
One advantage to the stick which does make tie ups and locks more accessible, and that is being overlooked here is the size of the stick.
So you are on the ground, or in a standing clinch, this is the time to use the stick for an insertion and lock.
I've gotten in close where my opponents mind is all obineeko, obineeko, obineeko, and I just hunch up take the shots an set up a drop takedown with the stick behind the knee.
The narrow cross section (in comparison with the arm) and the extra reach are the assets that make stick grappling.
Mike
BioLogic Combat Systems
 
Don said:
"I would also agree that in my experience, you need to bust someone up before you lock them up."

The concensus seems to be that, yes there is a time and place for stick grappling, but that strikes/thrusts are the first line of defense against a vigorous attack....

Mike said:
"One advantage to the stick which does make tie ups and locks more accessible, and that is being overlooked here is the size of the stick."

Good point, Mike. My street "stick" is a 36" walking cane. I agree that a shorter stick is more effective for grappling type moves.

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http://pub48.ezboard.com/bcaneknifestick
 
mike i agree with you that you can use the stick when you wrestle, but i dont agree with anybody who thinks you can use those locking and choking techniques when somebody is standing up (like after a strike). espcially those hapkido "hold still while i tie you up" moves.
 
Kuntawman
I agree that you can't just flick an arm out of the air and tie the person up into a pretzal, but from a standing clinch the chokes, and locks are competely accessable.
Many "Oh sh*t" moments in close can be settled with quick wraps and aggressive lock movements, even if not completed, can punish the joints and affect stability.
The idea of the lock magically happeninf in the fight just 'cause the person is SO good is a common falacy. The BG determines "the time has come for this to happpen." The situation can be sculpted to your general favor, but the idea that a lock (the event) can be made to happen is ridiculous.
In the Western Martial Arts community this has become known as "event fixation" (thanks Dwight for bringing this concept to light) the concept that something can happen in a vacuum or forced to occur, because some one said it should or since it happened before.
Mike
BioLogic Combat Systems
 
Various "defensive tactics" systems taught to Police Officers over the years have featured a variety of locks and takedowns using the "baton". ( hehe-I love euphemisms!)
By and large, however, cops never used these techniques "on the street", as they were felt to be too complex. We now know that fine motor control suffers under high-stress
invironments, such as fighting, and most POs are now taught simpler, more direct methods, such as the PPCT system.
 
The locks, dis-arms, etc. are great to learn and really some of the coolest part of stick fighting. However, my experience is that when sparring the action is too fast and it is really not practical. You might fit one in on rare ocassion but if you are fighting a trained fighter - you will not get the opportunity very often.

On the other hand - where these types of moves could come into play is on the street. If some guy takes a swing at you with something in his hand and he broadcasts the move (as most untrained people will) - a disarm with a joint lock thrown in might work very nicely. But you better be quick.

If you go to the ground, most of your stick-related locks and disarms are out. They work best when you are standing. At that point Jui Jitsu is the name of the game.

[This message has been edited by DanielL (edited 02-21-2001).]
 
I think Don makes some good points worth thinking about in his first post. Though the debate echos in my mind, I'm still placing my money on the way we train though. In the stickfights that I've been in, I've never used much of the standard traditional trapping or tie ups/joint manips that is commonly taught, however I have worked a version of the tie up under real situations. It is easier to do it to a first time stickfighter obviously, but i train to do it against whoever I fight. Again it isn't done in the way it is traditionally taught, but certain things can be done. Joint locks and the likes, I have never seen done in the manner that I have seen them taught.

It would seem that there are techniques that work when sparring in the ring and facing off, than there are things that will work when someone is wstanding in front of you and pulls back to swing, etc., etc., than there are those where it's WTF!?!?

In my experience, I feel that the 'techniques' from the sparring sessions would be more adaptable to the self defense situations where the self defense techs may not work so well in reverse. While I have always advocated exploration and the use of sparring to try and implement your techniques or new "stuff", there is only so much that one can see in that context of sparring and watching the tapes of the fights before one says, OK, that's not working for me.

On the other spectrum, I do see where 'self-defense' techniques and training has to come in. I have disarmed a friend in a bar before, and I am glad that he was a friend and that my job was to make sure he didn't kill the OTHER guy and not me. I did use a technical disarm, so I'm glad that I have trained that.

The way I see it though, is that there is so much out there, I would rather practice and perfect the higher percentage moves from the sparring context, than work my way back towards efficent self-defense techs before going into all of it. I still stick to my gun though, that someone that spars and trains to spar would be more likely to be able to pull his techs off on the street with a little adaption than vice versa.

The disadvantage to duelling and facing off though can be that the guys spend too much time "squaring off". Of course, in a duelling situation, both parties are usually competent and respect the pain that can be inflicted on each other. On the street, you will most likely be dealing with someone that has absolutely no care for his own life, let alone yours. This could cause the duelist to be caught off guard by "unrealistic attacks" or something to the like, but I think that if someone spars with enough different people one could push his training limit to a higher level.

Well, just some thoughts on the subject. Would have replied earlier...(as this is one of my favorite subjects)...but I just moved and my phone line has only been connected today.

Take Care,

BTW, Crecy, tehre are some videos of stickfights and training drills at http://www.fullcontacthi.com . Of course, "Unleashing The Beast Within" is my favorite...let me know what you think.

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Chad
Full Contact Stickfighting Hawaii
www.fullcontacthi.com
 
Hi Chad. I'm glad you got your phone line hooked back up. I missed seeing your input on various subjects.

I recently reviewed several Hanbo videos on my ezboards forum CaneKnifeStick. While it may be a viable and effective system for those who can make it work, I have come to the realization it can't be made to work for me. I keep studying and reviewing all sorts of training videos. It seems that I am most in tune with the simple power strikes and thrusts.

Like many others here, I have fantasized and dreamed about all-out, full-contact stick fighting matches using my cane, but the reality of my age and abilities tell me that this just ain't a gonna happen! :-)

But, since working out with the cane for the past five months, I truly feel that I am better able to defend myself on the street than I ever have been before in my almost 59 years on this planet.

I'd just like to say that folks like you and the Dog Brothers, who put on the gear and go to it, are a constant inspiration for some of us old fart "grey tigers". It was a great revelation for me to discover that most of the martial arts stuff gets tossed out the window when another guy is trying his best to bash your head in, with his stick!


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http://pub48.ezboard.com/bcaneknifestick
 
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