Real Stickfighting

Hi Ray, Im coming up to Sacremento in November, to visit family. Thank you for the kind words.

>>to discover that most of the martial arts
>>stuff gets tossed out the window when
>>another guy is trying his best to bash
>>your head in, with his stick!

I wouldn't say get thrown out the window necessarily, but some things are used differently than taught.


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Chad
Full Contact Stickfighting Hawaii
www.fullcontacthi.com
 
In my experience (FWIW) ... things like disarms and joint manipulations (ie locks & throws) are incidental in full-contact fighting. By that I mean that if the opportunity presents itself as a by product of something else you're doing you take it, but they aren't something that are part of your over all game plan. You don't say, "Hmmm ... I'll do this, causing him to do that and then I'll respond with disarm #1A"

Traps/checks however seem more of an integral part of your plans. For example, when facing someone who has a staff, while you have doble baston you can use a broken strike with one stick to create the opening then stike with the other stick as you close the gap (ideally hitting their lead hand) and leaving that stick in contact with their weapon/hand (trapping/checking their weapon) as you cut loose with your other stick. Similar checks/traps can be done with baston y daga and solo baston. These traps/checks are typically simple in nature. Some truly "trap" or capture their weapon while others merely delay them from immediately bringing their weapon back into play.

The hanbo, if memory serves correctly is a 4-5 foot staff. If so, then I agree that it can be a devastating weapon system if done properly. I was playing with applying it within the framework of our system yesterday. Does anyone know if this length of weapon is part of the traditional FMA's and, if so, what the proper name for this type of system is. Thanks.

By the way, the above information is a part of what will be covered in our Mixed Weapons Fighting Seminar being held March 10th. Anyone in the Maryland area, who's interested should stop by my "Seminar Announcement" thread for details on the seminar.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton



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Full Contact Martial Arts Association.

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."

[This message has been edited by Dave Fulton (edited 02-25-2001).]
 
Thanks for the correction Ray. In that case, I was learning a Jo type of weapon.

Is there a FMA weapon similar to a Jo and, if so, what is it called?

Thanks!

Dave Fulton



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Full Contact Martial Arts Association.

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dave Fulton:
In my experience (FWIW) ... things like disarms and joint manipulations (ie locks & throws) are incidental in full-contact fighting. By that I mean that if the opportunity presents itself as a by product of something else you're doing you take it, but they aren't something that are part of your over all game plan. You don't say, "Hmmm ... I'll do this, causing him to do that and then I'll respond with disarm #1A"

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Hey Dave, how's it going. Actually, I have had good percentage rate with disarms and stick takedowns from the clinch. Of course, the disarm involves a little elbow against the forearm
wink.gif
, but I think the point is that it's not done the way it is often taught or trained. I've had fairly high success translating the traditional espada y daga agaw set into the single stick fighting that we do. I'm sure we're on the same page, just different words. So, how's the training? I'm working on a tape with the clinch utilizing "traditional" trapping, disarms, and takedowns translated into the clinch for real fighting.



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Chad
Full Contact Stickfighting Hawaii
www.fullcontacthi.com
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dave Fulton:
Thanks for the correction Ray. In that case, I was learning a Jo type of weapon.

Is there a FMA weapon similar to a Jo and, if so, what is it called?

Thanks!

Dave Fulton


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Hi Dave, I believe that the weapon you are asking about is called the Sibat.

Ray

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http://pub48.ezboard.com/bcaneknifestick
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by poboy:
I am not well versed in FMA, and I'm not sure if you mean joint locks while standing or groundfighting. But I do recall reading an article in Martial Arts Illustrated a couple years ago. In the article Marc Denny(of the Dog Brothers,as if you didn't know)said that in their competitions they do use "stick-grappling." And I know that some great FMA instructors teach joint locking techniques, such as Dionisio "Cacoy" Canete. "Judo" Gene LeBell has even written a book that covers, exclusively, controlling techniques with a stick(No strikes). And I'm sure there are others. Again, I have not trained much in any of these systems so these are just observations.

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I had the good fortune to train with one of the master's senior students, Chris Petrilli. Unfortunately my time with him was short. I would say that what made the locking techniques work in their system was that they were applied at close range and they flowed directly out of striking movments.

In other words their whole system contained all the standard striking techniques of any stick system. Where they came into their own was at grappling distance. The Dog Brothers found that a good grappler could give a good stick man a hard time so they got together with the Machado brothers and incorporated some grappling, especially ground fighting. It is my understanding that Master Canete actually had an aikido background along with his traditional Filipino training and the result was a stick style that focused on close quarters use of the stick to strike and lock. At grappling range they use very specific close quarters impact techniques but as you can see from watching the Dog Brothers films, most people havde limited training in delivering effective impact at grappling range. But when combined with good close quarters impact techniques the locking techniques of this system are devastating.

So there you are thinking you are in a standard stick fight and then the next thing you know this guy is in your face and you are taking hits from the stick as well as knees, elbows, head butts and then your elbow is locked and you go flying, with you arm breaking before you even hit the ground... That's what it would be like to fight one of the fellows from this style.

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George S. Ledyard
Defensive Tactics Options
Bellevue, WA
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bikewer:
Various "defensive tactics" systems taught to Police Officers over the years have featured a variety of locks and takedowns using the "baton". ( hehe-I love euphemisms!)
By and large, however, cops never used these techniques "on the street", as they were felt to be too complex. We now know that fine motor control suffers under high-stress
invironments, such as fighting, and most POs are now taught simpler, more direct methods, such as the PPCT system.</font>
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The Police experience is dictated by their training regemin which is basically zero training after their initial academy experience. The national average for in service training is two 8 hour sessions per year. That covers everything: OC Spray, low level arrest and control, high level impact techniques, cuffing, and whatever non-deadly weapons they use. So you can see why even the simplest technique are challenging to them: they don't train. Do not use the average law enforcement experience as a basis for what works and what doesn't if you are going to actually train. Six months of hard training in any practically oriented style will put you at the level of the guys who train the instructors not just the line guys.

In Washington State it takes about 180 hours of training to be a Defensive Tactics Master Instructor which then entitles you to teach other instructors. As most of you who train know, 180 hours out in the martial arts world doesn't qualify you to teach anyone, you're still just a green or brown belt.

There are a lot of very effective techniques that work in the real world if someone takes the initiative to train and develop some skill.

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George S. Ledyard
Defensive Tactics Options
Bellevue, WA
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ray Langley:
Hi Dave, I believe that the weapon you are asking about is called the Sibat.
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Hi Ray,

Maybe I'm mistaken but I think (emphasis on "think") that a Sibat would be a 6 foot staff (equivalent to a Bo in Kobujutsu). I could be wrong though because my teacher doesn't put much emphasis on things like classical terminology. I guess he figures it doesn't matter much so long as you know how to use it. We call our sticks: "sticks", "big sticks" and "REALLY big sticks"
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Actually, my teacher just refers to any long stick as "Tapada" though I think that might be technically incorrect. Based on what I've picked up from people in the classical FMA, "Tapada" is a methodology for using a Sibat (ie 6' staff).

Can anyone with a classical FMA background (Chad, Guacho, etc) clarify the meaning of the terms "Sibat", "Tapada" (I've also heard "Tapado" and I think there's a difference between the two) and the classical FMA term (if there is one) for a 4-5' staff similar to a Jo in Japanese Kobujutsu?

Thanks!

Dave Fulton





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Full Contact Martial Arts Association.

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Chad W. Getz FCSH:
Hey Dave, how's it going. Actually, I have had good percentage rate with disarms and stick takedowns from the clinch. Of course, the disarm involves a little elbow against the forearm
wink.gif
, but I think the point is that it's not done the way it is often taught or trained. I've had fairly high success translating the traditional espada y daga agaw set into the single stick fighting that we do. I'm sure we're on the same page, just different words. So, how's the training? I'm working on a tape with the clinch utilizing "traditional" trapping, disarms, and takedowns translated into the clinch for real fighting.

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Hey Chad!

It's going pretty well, except that work is so hectic right now that I only get to train on Saturdays. By the time I put in 12 hrs at work and commute 1.5 hrs each way and fulfill my home/family responsibilities, I have no time left over. This should all change in a another month and then I'll have more time for fun things like family & training.
biggrin.gif
How are things in beautiful Hawaii?

Ok, we're talking about from the clinch (?) ... my mistake. I thought we were talking about while on the move and the two are totally different in my experience. You just don't see a high percentage of those "cool" (ie nifty, crowd wowing) disarms/traps/take downs being pulled off on the move when it's full contact. Now, at close quarters and especially in a clinch, you do get more of the traps/disarms/take downs, but oddly enough the "cool" ones still don't work very well. They're aided by proper application of close quarter impact techniques: punyos, thrusts, elbows, knees, sikiran kicking and head-butts, but I still think that they're mostly something that just happens ... like "oops, there it is ... gotcha!" as opposed to something that you're actively looking for. Either your body "sees" the opportunity and takes it, or it doesn't and the moment is gone. At least that's been my experience. Incidentally, that's why I think close quarters is so difficult to be effective at. The openings appear and disappear so quickly that the need to have everything trained to a totally instinctive level is greater than when fighting at a longer range where there's more time to react. I think that why you always hear people say that things happen so fast at close range.

As for translating EyD into single stick, I'm with you there. My single stick fighting improved unbelievably once I started fighting with EyD. My posture and use of my "live hand" really changed and improved my fighting. In fact, whenever I spar, I try to make my first match EyD just to get into the right mindset.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton



------------------
Full Contact Martial Arts Association.

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."

[This message has been edited by Dave Fulton (edited 02-26-2001).]
 
Sibat as I learned it is a staff around the height of the individual's head. Tapada or tapado stick, I think, is referring to a staff the height of one's sternum, although, I've was never taught it like that directly. That is pretty standard terminology, although topado is the name of an art not too old utilizing a short staff and very few moves.

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Chad
Full Contact Stickfighting Hawaii
www.fullcontacthi.com
 
According to this link, the tapada is a shoulder height stick.

http://www.pekiti-tirsia.de/englisch/e-akt.htm

Scroll down to Training with Master Colimbo. There is also a photo. The Dog Brothers video tape description called it a tapado. The guy using it against top dog in the tape fared pretty well for himself even though he only used the baseball-bat grip with an over the shoulder, 45 degree downward strike, from right to left.


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http://pub48.ezboard.com/bcaneknifestick
 
If you are using a weapon capable of taking a man out with one shot, I don't think grappling is your first choice of techniques in combat. Obviously a sword, but even an ironwood stick against an unarmored man, makes for a much different fight than armored and using rattan. However, when your opponant closes the gap and tries to smother you in a clinch, then grappling comes into its own.

What you often see in sparing is this progression:
1.Striking at range.
2.Whoever is not doing well at long range tries to smother, clinching and trying to tie up the opponant's weapon arm while throwing shots with whichever limb is not involved with the clinch.
3.Grappling to defeat the clinch.

Kind of a "Rock-Paper-Scissors" thing.

Disarms were traditionally the last thing taught in Pekiti-Tirsia single stick because you needed to have so much else under your belt in order to pull them off (and even then, only after a good strike or two.

Ron Harris (the guy with the Tapado stick on the Dog Bros tape) gave an introductory Tapado class one afternoon at the 1988 Pekiti-Tirsia summer camp in Nashville, TN. Tapado uses a stick of about 1.25" in diamiter and about heart height. I'm 6'1" and this gives me a Tapodo stick of about 4.5 feet. The main moves I was shown are a backhand and downward strike that springs back off the ground for an uppercut,(however I have seen video of the chief Tadado instructor in the Philippines using many more strikes than just these two).

Tapada uses a thinner, more whippy stick of about 1" and is measured to the same height as the user (I would use a 6'1" Tapada stick). Tapada's main moves are a forehand downward hit and a veriety of uppercuts. My instructor, Tuhon Leo Gaje, was taught Tapada on a trip to the Philippines back in the late 1970's and taught it to our group in NYC.
I think both Tapada and Tapado are expressions of different dialects and come from the same root meaning "to hit".

Regards,
Tuhon Bill McGrath
http://www.pekiti-tirsia.com

 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tuhon Bill McGrath:

Ron Harris (the guy with the Tapado stick on the Dog Bros tape) gave an introductory Tapado class one afternoon at the 1988 Pekiti-Tirsia summer camp in Nashville, TN. Tapado uses a stick of about 1.25" in diamiter and about heart height. I'm 6'1" and this gives me a Tapodo stick of about 4.5 feet. The main moves I was shown are a backhand and downward strike that springs back off the ground for an uppercut,(however I have seen video of the chief Tadado instructor in the Philippines using many more strikes than just these two).

Tapada uses a thinner, more whippy stick of about 1" and is measured to the same height as the user (I would use a 6'1" Tapada stick). Tapada's main moves are a forehand downward hit and a veriety of uppercuts. My instructor, Tuhon Leo Gaje, was taught Tapada on a trip to the Philippines back in the late 1970's and taught it to our group in NYC.
I think both Tapada and Tapado are expressions of different dialects and come from the same root meaning "to hit".

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Thank you for your input Tuhon, but I'm still a little confused.

You seem to define a Tapado stick as being 1.25" x heart height and a Tapada stick as being 1" x head height. I'm fine upto this point.

However, you then speculate that "both Tapada and Tapado are expressions of different dialects and come from the same root meaning 'to hit'." I interpret this (and this might be where I made my mistake) to mean that "Tapada" in Dialect-A = "Tapado" in Dialect-B. This however, would imply that Tapada and Tapado are the same weapon, which doesn't make sense in light of the definitions that you gave.

Can you clarify it a little more?

Thanks!

Dave

P.S. Of course it might simply that working 65+ hour weeks for the last few months is starting to have an adverse affect on my mind.
eek.gif
biggrin.gif


P.S. (cont'd) Yeah, I think that's the problem alright. My mind is turning to mush ... I found myself staring at that little "eek" smily-face and the pulsating eyes were slightly hypnotic.


[This message has been edited by Dave Fulton (edited 02-27-2001).]
 
Hi Tuhon Bill, thanks for joining in. Since you read this forum, I have a question for you. In your .mpeg of the short Cane Set, you are shown striking from right to left using the "standard" baseball grip. But, when you swing back from left to right, you don't switch the hand positions. I can see that you have greater speed doing this, and less mechanical movement, but do you think this is worth the sacrifice in power? This is a serious question and I have been thinking about it for a long time.....

Also, since I started this thread, I should tell you that I am using a heavy, hickory cane. Would you consider this to be basically a one-strike weapon like the ironwood stick you mentioned? Thanks.

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http://pub48.ezboard.com/bcaneknifestick
 
We learn a lot of joint locks in my school. When we actually get into a fight we don't go looking to use them straight off. We just have them if one happens to present itself to us.

The nice thing about joint locks is that they work so nicely in conjunction with pressure points. A pressure point leads to a joint lock leads to another pressure point leads to another joint lock, and so on. So if, in a fight, we get a shot at a pressure point, then (depending of course on the pressure point) that leads to a possible joint lock. Once you're in a joint lock with a guy in my school, you're pretty much screwed because you can book it that we're positioning you for another pressure point strike and starting a cycle that will result in you going down.

The hardest part is getting to that first joint lock - -no one in a fighting mood is gonna sit there and let you lock 'em up.

 
Shadowfax, hi. First off, I would like to point out that there are many many heated arguments on the www, and I have been involved in a few, about the validity of training things that are percieved by some to not be functional or rare or not seen by some in fights. I would like to have a discussion about this in an adult manner. Please, nobody turn this into a "it works, no it doesn't" argument, that is not what this is inteded to be. With that said.

I percieve that by saying "we don't train to go in and to do them, but to be able to do it in case it happens" to be a common statement, and one that I had once trained with in mind. As most of you know, I now train and try to test my "techniques" and theories under pressure though what I percieve to be realistic sparring in various situations and duelling settings. Honestly, when the heat is on, and the objective was for one person to seriously hurt the other guy, I have never seen, used, or been able to even see "an opening" in which most common joint locks, wrist locks, elbow cranks, etc. can be used, either by myself, or any of the other people that I have trained with in a realsitic situation where the objective was to "get" the other person and not get "caught" yourself, in many different settings, where the only exceptions were to be on the ground utilizing some forms of the wrist lock and certain techniques out of a clinch. My training opinion would be to train them in the manner in which they happened, rather than in a manner in which they might happen. Thge train of thought is not leading to one way is right, one is wrong, but I am here to learn, and I would like to discuss pros and cons, for or against the topic in a manner that is informative and gets everyone thinking about both points.

Thanks,

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Chad
Full Contact Stickfighting Hawaii
www.fullcontacthi.com
 
Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread! It appears that I'm not the only one who is interested in determining that which is closest to the truth when it comes to a real street defense situation.

I suppose that the various locks, takedowns, and disarms could be categorized as "stick-grappling". Those who actually engage in fighting with sticks seem to prefer strikes and thrusts. Those who advocate stick grappling techniques agree that it is not something that you "go looking for". They also seem to agree that these type of moves work best after the opponent has been "softened up", has been disarmed, or is unarmed to begin with.




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http://pub48.ezboard.com/bcaneknifestick
 
Hi Ray, sometimes I do look for the "stickgrapple", if it's necessary. In the street, I would presume that the stick clinch would also be a very adaptable game to have. Some of the neck locks that I have used are down right unforgiving. Also, the more I train with it and try it in fighting, the more I am capable of being able to pull off traps. I was just speaking with my instructor today and he asked me to number and right down some of the new trap and disarms for single stick and he will be showing it to the classes. Of course, they are not new, just re"discovered", right. The traps are worked off of what I learned as the long and short tie-ups with stick and dagger, along with a mix of the vale tudo clinch game, and limb destruction.

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Chad
Full Contact Stickfighting Hawaii
www.fullcontacthi.com
 
Dave Futon asked about the difference between the words "Tapada" and "Tapado".
I was told that they both mean "to hit". I think the difference in spelling simply comes from the originators of the two styles speaking two different dialects.

Ray Langley asked:
"Hi Tuhon Bill, thanks for joining in. Since you read this forum, I have a question for you. In your .mpeg of the short Cane Set, you are shown striking from right to left using the "standard" baseball grip. But, when you swing back from left to right, you don't switch the hand positions. I can see that you have greater speed doing this, and less mechanical movement, but do you think this is worth the sacrifice in power? This is a serious question and I have been thinking about it for a long time.....
Also, since I started this thread, I should tell you that I am using a heavy, hickory cane. Would you consider this to be basically a one-strike weapon like the ironwood stick you mentioned? Thanks."

You do sacrifice some power on the backhand by not changing grips, but I think this is balenced out by keeping the technique simple. I teach the forehand as the "main" strike and the backhand as the "recovery" strike for the very reasons you've observed.

I consider any stick capable of crushing a man's skull with one well placed blow a potencial "one shot stopper", but then the sidearms police carry are potencial "one shot stoppers" too, yet most agencies teach their officers the "double tap".

Regards,
Tuhon Bill McGrath
PS. Chad started another thread (ATTN: Tuhon McGrath/Pekiti-Tirsia)reguarding disarms that relates to the grappling thread here. I don't want to post on the same forum twice, so you'll have to take a look at Chad's thread to see our Q&A.

 
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