Really??????

peacock :

Some steel are better in cutting flesh than others
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For ease of rapid healing you would want an unltra fine polish which would demand a steel with a fine grain structure. In practice, sharpening skills would dictate the cutting ability far more so than steel properties. But yes, if your sharpening skills are on the extreme side you will be able to see differences in cutting ability on flesh (and other things) at very low edge angles. For example :

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=226263

-Cliff
 
Originally posted by TKD
I have a question for the people here that got cut? Are you guys the clumsiest bunch of incompetent fools that always get cut or do you guys just enjoy getting cut? Do you guys like cut yourselves due to a fetish? Do you guys get to ride the "special" bus to school everyday or something? I'm suprised you guys aren't dead yet.
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TKD,

Your kind of a dumb ass aren't you?

No, don't answer it's rhetorical and you already answered for us.

Mike
 
What kind of steel is used for X-acto blades? I had a number of childhood run-ins with that.:o
 
Oh by far, S30V is a much better steel than Titanium.

In reality, it agains depends on the edge, geometry, and hardness.

Many surgeons use knapped obsidian. My worst cut came from a can lid. I don't think the quality of steel matters much in the real world - human flesh can be cut by paper, as noted.
 
Originally posted by tirod

Many surgeons use knapped obsidian.
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Scene from one of my archaeology classes where we (the students) had a bunch of obsidian and were trying our hands at knapping:

Female classmate: "Hey! Someone's bleeding all over the place! ... Oh, it's me!":o :footinmou :D
 
Thank you all for your educational as well as entertaining responses to this post.

Cliff,
I'm just wondering if the principle of "self sharpening blades" is applicable when working with meat where bones are always present. What kind of steel would you recommend that could hold a polished acute edge longer? Would like to have a couple made for my butchering purposes.

peacock
 
Peacock, I made that statement and it is not a myth.Just remember the context in which that statement was made.I was commenting on how some alloys perform better on some media as opposed to others. This is fact. I have been making knives and testing alloys for far to long to make an assumption based on less then adequate data.
 
tirod, Titanium is not a steel. how is S30-V better than titanium?What grade of titanium ?
 
peacock :

I'm just wondering if the principle of "self sharpening blades" is applicable when working with meat where bones are always present.
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No, that only holds if the media is somewhat abrasive. Working around meat your main sources of blunting are going to be :

1) contacts off of bone leading to impaction, how much this is an issues depends on your skill and exactly what you are doing

2) corrosion, which is generally only an issue if you leave the blade coated in blood and unused for extended periods of time

3) edge roll due to meat cutting, this is *really* slow which is why you can cut meats for so long if you avoid contaminants (grit) and bone

What kind of steel would you recommend that could hold a polished acute edge longer? Would like to have a couple made for my butchering purposes.
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Something very hard (64+ hrc) and with a very fine grain structure (M2, CPM's). Phil Wilson specializes exactly in these types of knives. Also check out Pinoy knife who does full hard M2 blades.


If you are just seeing light bone contacts (no prying to separate joints) the edge thickess should be 0.010" or less. Have the primary grind full flat or better yet full hollow.

Alvin Johnson (hobbiest maker) has made many such knives for people in the meat cutting industry. Blades are full hard 1095 (65+ HRC), with very thin edges (<0.010") with full height hollow grinds.

-Cliff
 
Ken,
I don't remember now where I saw that statement (I came accross it after opening links after links) but thank you for posting it. It really made me wonder why or how, hence this thread. If I could hear it from you, do you agree then that with the alloys that you think will do better on flesh, plus good tempering, good blade geometry,and good sharpening techniques will produce an ideal butcher knife? In your experience, what kind of alloys are needed
on a knife for this intended application I'm looking at? Hope you don't mind me asking this specific questions. Thanks again.

Cliff,
I thank you once again for your time and worthy recommendations. I'm an avid reader of all your posts.

You both have a nice one.

peacock
 
There are many steels/alloys that would make the ideal butcher knife .VG-10 would be an excellent choice as would S30-V. If I were making a butcher knife for my purposes and could choose any steel I wanted I would choose "cowery-Y" . I have been doing testing on this material lately and find it extremely dense,smooth,holds an amazingly keen edge longer than anything else I have used.It sharpens up reasonably easily concidering it's wear resistance and can get it sharper than any steel I have ever used. Under a microscope it has a much tighter grain than any other steel I have to test it against (all the CPM steels and BG-42,ATS-34 etc..... I am impressed .Though it is not a huge improvement over most of the commonly used steels it has the characteristics I look for in a blade material. It is expensive and hard to aquire .Daido steel co in Japan has discontinued it. I am pursuing a source for it as I was only sent a couple pieces for evaluation purposes.
There are many steels that would suit your needs and choosing cowery over any of the other candidates wouldnt make a drastic difference.Most wouldn't notice the subtlties that separate the common high quality steels.I still love 440-C it would make an excellent choice .However it never really got a fair chance because most people think all 440's are created equal. Same reason Cruciable changed the name of 440-V to S-90v and 420-V to S60-v. It's marketing and perception is everything. Most people cannot and do not have the capacity to do thorough evaluation and rely on others input .Often times the guys giving the advise pretend to know more than they actually do and often times just repeat something they heard without knowing the facts. Or make **** up. Theres alot of mis information on this forum even from percieved authorities on the topics. I prefer trusting hard scientific data and proven facts.I have the resources as I work with Kershaw and Kai corp in Japan. They have all the machines and testing instruments and a facillity dedicated to testing blade materials. Kai mfgrs 4 million razor blades a day.

My intention is not to piss anyone off or pretend to be an authority which I am not.Only to bring clarity to those that choose to listen.
 
Perhaps it's right. I always feel that my Fowler's Long Yearling is better suited to skin (or cut meat). The steel is 52100. Or perhaps it's how she was ground.
 
Hello Ken,
I've listen very well and I think that you are also an authority in this trade(Knifemaking). I thank you much for your time and for your eye opening (to me at least), and very informative last post. Really, it's my first time to hear about a "Cowery-Y" steel. It surely sound like it's an awesome material as per your description, but more importantly, on what it can do. I don't know how expensive it is, but I think that the biggest problem is the difficulty of acquiring it, especially if some knifemaker would like to offer it to the public.
Anyway, I gather that VG-10,S30V,and 440C are your best alternatives for an ideal butcher knife. Is it because they have very similar properties/characteristics(extremely dense,smooth,holds an amazingly keen edge longer than anything else)with that of a Cowery-Y steel? Does it go without saying then that you're rating them(VG-10,S30V,440C)to be in the same level of classification when you said that they are all "excellent choices"?
I also would like to ask your expert,and honest opinion on which among the three alternative alloys mentioned above would YOU go for if you need a butcher knife that is tough, but at the same time can maintain or hold a sharp edge for a longer time? I'm looking at a knife that could be used also for prying when the need arise. I would very much appreciate it if you can include the optimal Rockwell hardness of the particular steel(s) you choose, and can recommend.
Thanks again, and have a nice one.

peacock

PS: Cliff,
I also would appreciate if you can drop a line about my above question to Ken about a tough, and long lasting edge blade for the intended application.
same
 
The afore mentioned steels are quite different but either would work well for a kitchen /butcher knife. I would choose 440-C or VG-10 ,Bg-42 equally. All have great corrosion resistance they sharpen up well and I feel would hold up well concidering how thin a butcher knife is/They are tough enough to handle any task.BG-42 has a touch of Vanadium which may make it hold a medium edge better than 440-C or VG-10.Optimum Rc for these steels in a Butcher knife with a thin cross section 57-58Rc would give them a little more toughness.Necessary concidering the torquing and twisting most butcher knives eventually go through.
S30V would also be a good choice if it were 55-57Rc You may loose a little corrosion resistance but you wouldn't have to worry about edge chipping.I actually prefer S30V in my folders to be at 57-58Rc as the enhanced toughness is more important to me than is the small difference in edge retention b/t57-58 to 59-60 Rc.Besides The steel just performs better imo in this range unless the knife will only be used for delicate slicing opperations and never strike a bone or frozen food.
 
Hello Ken,
Thanks a million for sharing your expertise with regard to my querries. If you don't mind me asking another one, I would like to know if you ever tried knives out of prehardened or factory hardened tool steels. If so, what kind of prehardened tool steels did you try and can recommend for the above intended application.
Have a great one.

peacock
 
I forgot about this one : Talonite !

Definitely better for cutting meat than paper.
 
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