Recent Reno tragedy -- two kids and a baseball bat.

Bill,
My views have certainly changed,I now no longer am a nice guy, I try to walk away,but sometimes "they" won't let you!Conversation goes something like this!you are minding your own bus.! Hey, "old man"!"THEN"
IT STARTS!Usually it's two,they won't leave it "alone",won't let you walk! "They" are just having "FUN"!Finally you say "You don't want to do this! "Oh" ,yes they do! Then they pay the price!Sorry, people, this ain't the movies,sorry to rant! It's a pet problem of mine!It happens here quite a bit!
jim
 
Bill,
I get soooo tired of hearing down here,their just kids(some are bigger than we are), they have nothing to do! Or look at their "poor disadvantages"! What about the kids that had it "just" as bad , who became successful!!I agree with you guys, it's getting worse! Trained a LEO in the GUNTING! his stories make me glad I'm not a LEO! I couldn't do it! No way!The crap they have to put up with! No amount of $$ is worth it!Most are the "good" guys!
jim
 
I remember guidance from the elders. How many of you had an old man in your past who shared a few quiet moments, a special skill, a valued gift, or a philosophical talk?

There are young boys growing up today who have little contact with adult males.

I wonder if it would have made any difference to one of the bat-wielding boys if some old guy had given him a khukuri and showed him how to use it to lay a campfire. Perhaps a talk in the flickering firelight about what it means to be a man, and some old stories.

One of my friends remembers the old man who taught him karate in the misty mornings.

Perhaps we can't change the world, but it is possible to make a difference in the life of the lad who lives down the street.

What is this society coming to? They just don't make old fogies like they used to!
 
Some great first hand stuff here and many thanks. As usual, it seems like most of us are operating on the same frequency which somehow does not surprise me a lot.

Yes, Howard, I had two old men -- my grandfathers -- and an old woman, my Cherokee Grandmother for mentors. I consider myself to be most fortunate and give thanks almost daily for the good karma I have enjoyed in this life.

I'd gladly give a good deal of my time to my three grandchildren but you know the story. My son and his former wife are divorced. The mother has had three live in boyfriends in the past year. My son is living with a current girlfriend and they spend most of their free time at the bars of Bourbon Street. The mom would rather be free of the children, I think, and my son seems to have given up after the divorce and does little or nothing as far as his children are concerned. It's awkward and geography makes contact very difficult.

My hope is that I'll die before I hear that the kids are dead themselves or in prison.

This is not a sob story but one that I think is just very, very typical of today's society.

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Blessings from the computer shack in Reno.

Uncle Bill
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I must say a few words in defense of my generation, not as an excuse but rather as a reason why things are different.

1. Remember that we are a more mobile society now, meaning that in former times a person would have been more anchored to his/her community and thus more accountable to it. Now we have people constantly passing through, making the opportunity to commit crimes anonymously and escape all the more common.

2. The continued march toward industrialization means that more and more people are being displaced as their traditional jobs are being replaced by computers. This "information revolution" has marginalized a large number of people both occupationally and culturally, because they can no longer participate in 'modern' society.

Again, just ideas...
 
ruel,
Sorry my friend,"I see what you say as an excuse"! I have lost jobs,gone without,sometimes whondered what I was going to do!"NEVER", did I resort "To STEALING"!
Even at a young age, I had respect for myself & others!My ans.to the cure, would not be popular. Maybe the mod. generation, feels they should have anything they want & use excuses to justify!
JIM
 
Whoops, looks like the good part of my post got chopped off. Where I was going with it was this:

1. Things were "better" in the "good old days" if you were a certain kind of person, ie. white, male, etc. etc. The early/mid-20thc. was most certainly NOT fine and dandy for others.

Back in the "good old days" things like segregation and labor exploitation were acceptable, and the poor and other socially marginal people were not a problem because they were kept under foot.

2. Now that they have some of their Constitutional rights, it has created a concomitant change in the social landscape. But because social opportunity has not kept up with the needs of these people, they have turned to other options, crime being one of them.

3. That's not to say that alot of our popular culture doesn't glorify the criminal lifestyle. But the reality is that society has always found ways to express its violent underside - even during the 'good old days' - and this is just another, if more open, manifestation of an unfortunate constant in human behavior.

4. The reason I'm going on about this is that to say there was such a thing as "good old days" is to imply that America was a better place when it was run by white Protestant men, and that the intrusion of women and minorities, who have alternate sets of values, have contaminated it.

If we want to be part of the solution to crime in America, we should not play the blame game and dismiss criminals as simply "people without our values and morals." What we need to do instead is to seek the causes of crime and address problems there.

5. And for the record, Jim, many of my generation are good, decent people, better than many of their elders, so it's unfair to make sweeping generalizations of us.

[This message has been edited by ruel (edited 03-22-2001).]
 
I'm also, more or less, one of "this generation."

I think R's point highlights one of the things our culture has gotten confused, which is the difference between explanation and responsibility.

I think the temptation to do the wrong thing is worse in some ways nowadays, and it's harder to go back when you do. Going back to the crack example-it's really true that some vulnerable people can take one hit off that pipe and it's got them.

But explaining why it's harder to do the right thing doesn't change whether or not you did the right thing.

I don't like much being dismissed as a "Generation X kid," either, though. What the media latches onto as what defines us is pretty one-sided. Fact is, most of us didn't smoke boatloads of pot and spend half our adolescent lives riding skateboards down railings or shooting each other on the streets. I also bristle some when I hear someone talk about what "those kids" do. But I know why they do.

Two things in this thread really hit me. One was someone who talked about the curse of self-esteem. I remember talking to one of my patients on the addictions unit. Had been a lifelong BG, starting with burning cats and hitting teachers in early teens. Whenever he had a feeling he acted on it. He told me he thought his principal problem was that he'd "never really loved himself." I told him himself was the only thing he'd ever cared about, and that he might find it easier to like himself if he wasn't such an a**hole.

So much for provocative therapy.

I don't usually read this sort of book (I'm usually more a fan of data than mythology) but Iron John by Robert Bly did get me thinking. One thing he said was that young men don't trust old men any longer. I think that's true, and it's really killing us. But I think Bly missed making one thing clear-it's starting to go both ways. And I think that's what scares me most. I'm afraid the good kids are getting written off.

Man, do I go on on these threads or what?
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Gotta curb myself.
 
RUEL,
I don't want to play the "minority" game!We can go on for ever about this!Have I been discriminated against?Yep!Did I CRY ABOUT IT?Nope!I'm just fed up with people telling me I(or my generation) "OWES"them!
jim
 
Jim,

Have I ever demanded anything of you 'older' guys here? No. I work 2 jobs, am working on 2 masters degrees, help out around the community when I can, and write alot.

The reason I didn't let discrimination, etc. keep me down was because I had a nuclear family and good schooling. You probably did too. These are two things that many young people nowadays don't have.

Like I said above, you can blame and complain, or you can be part of the solution.
 
Ruel,
"Blame & Complain", don't think so!Just stating what I've seen & heard,"A lot of it "not from newspapers"but in real life!I don't base my feelings or beliefs on a Race
OR GROUP but on MY experience one on one!
It bothrs me when I deal with people who are responsible for "kicking kids out school"(Not the teachers fault), Kids miss "44"days of school!I ask do you "try" to talk to them & understand? They say sure but the kids "just don't care"! The kids answers are, "don't tell me about education
& my future,I don't care about next year or next week,I want to have "FUN: NOW!Guys,each one of us are a mixture of experiences,opinions & answers,I wonder if there is "one" answer to "all" of this!
jim
 
This topic hits close to home for many of us.

It is a concern to me as I raise my children. I removed my 13 year old son from the public school system when he started coming into conflict with administrators, flunking his classes, and testing out the drug subculture. Now he is instructed by his parents and grandmother, and seems to be doing better.

My daughter (11) is handling the public schools better. She pulls down good grades and has not got into too much trouble yet. She also expresses a preference for home instruction though.

We've been homeschooling one or the other of the kids each year for several years. It's a drain on family resources to purchase the materials and devote the time to instruction, especially when we have to pay taxes to the state to support the public system also. It can be tough, but what we pay for and devote our time to reflects our values.

Even with all the effort, there is no guarantee that we will be "successful" in raising our children. I guess that is what free will is all about. But we are trying hard to be good guides. That's why I have to jump in when it seems like people are writing off the nation's youth.

I taught in the public school system for several years. Although I no longer do that, I am still certified to teach high school physics and mathematics here in Washington. My experiences in the schools make me seriously question if it is wise to keep hundreds of young people in schools in virtual isolation from the adult community. It leads to a strange youth subculture reminiscent of that portrayed in the novel "Lord of the Flies." I've seen the tortured souls of youths from this culture close-up, and it comes as no surprise to me when they flip out and start shooting.
 
The scary thing is that Jim just described me between the ages of 11 and 16. Only 44 skipped days?
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I don't think there is any one answer. I do agree that there are a lot of problems with society.

Values that ought to be held in high esteem (honor, compassion, respect, etc.) are considered laughable and anachronistic. Acts of common courtesy (offering an old woman your seat on a crowded bus, for instance) are likely to get you labeled as "soft". In school, intelligence is more often a liability than an asset, and should be kept under wraps.

There are people in cities who, though they wouldn't hesitate to stop and pick up a grimy dollar in the street, wouldn't stop to pour their iced latte on a burning man -- they would consider it "embarrassing" to get involved. If a woman is being beaten in her apartment by her abusive boyfriend, a neighbor is more likely to file a noise complaint ("I was kept awake by crashing and agonized screaming") than call 911 on her behalf.

Grown men and women base their political opinions on those of their favorite Hollywood stars; this is because they'd rather be colossally stupid than unpopular. If I hear one more person say, "Well, <vapid actor/actress> said.." I'm going to vomit all over them (OK, no, not really). I have had people who are normally very intelligent tell me, "Well, that's how they do it on TV, so it must have SOME truth in it, right?" Sure, fictional characters are deserving of your trust. Just ask that chick who killed her boyfriend last year (he was standing behind her at the range, she pulled the pistol into a full "Sabrina" (just like on the X-files!) and accidentally shot him in the face).

We have a popular culture which either demonizes or deifies youth (and, as someone mentioned before, every time we turn around it's "the children, the children, we have to do it for the children"). For some reason people get it into their heads that children are better than adults, and that we should try to be more like them. Unfortunately, when adults try to emulate children, self-reliance and personal responsibility take a right kicking. We've seen a lot of this in recent years. It's Unacceptable to tell children that they're anything but perfect, so is it any wonder that so many grow up with the attitude that they can do no wrong? "I lost a finger by sticking it into a high-speed metal fan, so I'm suing the manufacturer. After all, it couldn't possibly be my fault, I'm really smart, everyone says so." The result? We try to idiot-proof the world, thus proving the old adage about Building a Better Idiot.

The old, rather than being valued for their wisdom and experience, are ridiculed as being stodgy and obsolete by young people, who don't seem to realize that you learn a lot more when you shut up once in a while. The young, rather than being schooled in the ways of right and wrong, are written off as worthless by the same older people who could potentially guide and salvage them. Religious people blame everything on the "moral decrepitude" of non-religious people. Non-religious people blame everything on the "dogmatic brainwashing" of organized religion. Everything is Someone Else's fault, so the answer we usually end up with is "the problem with humanity is all the danged humans." Everyone loses.

I'm good at complaining, but have no answers. I'm not sure if any of this crap is any different from the way it's always been, but I have a limited sphere of experience. Perhaps things have always been this way, but now we are just more aware of them. Or perhaps we live in a time when sociopathy has become unusually fashionable. In any case, I do try to be a "good" person and give people the benefit of the doubt, but I still strongly believe in the benefits of watching one's back. I hope that Yangdu's doctor recovers soon. Sorry about all the ranting.
 
Jim,

I happen to be a teacher in an "at risk" school (5th grade, ESL), and am all too familiar with skipping, apathy, and all the other problems we deal with. I also know that saying that they lack "our" values and morals doesn't work, 'cause it's been tried.

What's needed is to build strong community support, starting with their families and involving local businesses, local govt. offices, etc. EVERYONE needs to be involved. People who blame and complain are just that -- blamers and complainers. Those that want to be part of the solution think of ways they can get involved.

Some of the blamers are older people who'd rather sit and shake their heads all day rather than get up and do something. Some of the problems solvers include other students who act as peer tutors or upper-grade mentors.


Jim, you say you base you comments on "one on one" experience. Well, if that's true, you should know that there are many good young people out there, from my age on down, and that your sweeping condemnation of the whole generation (two, in fact) is totally and completely unfair. I would go so far as to say it offends the honor of good young people.

Uncle Bill, there wouldn't happen to be a *ahem* "teacher's discount" for Khukuris, would there?
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:O
 
Ruel, just don't forget the first time someone made another an offer he couldn't refuse. As I recall, he ended up with a horses head in his bed one morning.

If I were you, I'd be awful careful about taking "Uncle" Bill up on that offer the way you would Don Corleone.

See who he hangs around with ( pictures ):

http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum53/HTML/001163.html

See, that's what I've been trying to tell you, but would you listen? Nooooooo.

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Rusty


[This message has been edited by Rusty (edited 03-24-2001).]
 
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