Recent work, desert Ironwood handle

You can delete the photo, but not the knife. What do you intend to do with it?
 
It’s always bothered me when knifemaker’s take liberties with other maker’s designs without permission or even acknowledging they’ve done such. However, I guess I’ve grown a little numb to it as it happens so frequently with some designs such as Bill Bagwell’s Hells Bell, Jerry Fisk’s Sendero, most all of Bob Loveless’ designs and others.

I don’t remember it causing such a stir in other threads as it has here. Even in looking at 蓝山1234's other BF threads there’s been much praise when he’s posted up his Moran and Loveless copies. Are those so different from this thread? He's got tremendous talent, no doubt there.
 
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For better or for worse, Loveless designs have almost become public domain, especially as there are likely hundreds of makers duplicating his designs, and perhaps a pinch less so for Moran. I know of no one duplicating Jerry's work, certainly not to this degree...

There's a possible language and culture barrier, here, and I don't think we have the name of an individual maker aside from a web forum handle. I would hope we wouldn't discourage such talent from sharing with us, but it's also important that protocols be observed. I suspect this thread was slightly different in that it appeared as though the maker was claiming authorship of a direct copy of another maker's work. I could be wrong - in fact, I'm probably wrong - but it's my suspicion that language and culture are tough to bridge in an arena such as this.
Perhaps 蓝山1234 could provide a work-in-progress series that showed WHO they are, so we could have an idea of WHO this person is.
 
Dear Mr Jerry Hossoma and the master’s, I am a China knife fancier, I have acollection of a Jerry Hossom’s works. "蓝山1234" is my friend, his hobby, is to make the knife. What happened today unpleasant events, no disrespect or want to offend the Mr Jerry Hossom.As far as I know, if conditions permit, Lanshan 1234 or even want to do Jerry Mr. Hossom's apprentice.I want to become a member of ABS.
The main cause of the event today, we have seen people in the production of Loveless, or imitation of other masterpieces. As do not understand the cultural background or industry rules, misunderstand this thing. Please forgive our ignorance and accept our sincere apologies.
Thank you!
 
A number of custom knife makers have, in recent years, had their designs unlawfully counterfeited by Chinese manufacturers, which has cost them sales and also caused them potential reputational risks. The problem has, in fact, become quite widespread. So when a custom maker pays homage to another by reproducing his design without asking permission or even mentioning the designer by name, people tend to react negatively, and understandably so. The lack of a makers mark on the above knife caused added suspicion.

Going forward, if you wish to pay homage to another maker by reproducing his design, I would suggest that you first make every effort to obtain that maker's permission beforehand, and provide full credit and acknowledgement anywhere and everywhere you display said work.

Edited to add: You are clearly a talented maker; I look forward to seeing more of your work and would particularly enjoy seeing some of your own original designs
 
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Tony Bose gives away his patterns and his knowledge. Loveless as well. He assisted many makers in reproducing his work. They both also had/have strong sales in production models of their knives. For thousands of years, imitation of past artistic work is a respected way to develop ones talents.

But then I guess you all know better...

Keep up the good work 蓝山1234, I've been looking at your work since 2010 when you joined. If people had bothered to pay attention, they would have seen you are honorable and were not intending to produce and sell fake Hossom knives. Instead of jumping to a negative conclusion, all they needed to do was review your past threads. Don't be discouraged.
 
ABS hunter fans said:
Dear Mr Jerry Hossoma and the master’s, I am a China knife fancier, I have acollection of a Jerry Hossom’s works. "蓝山1234" is my friend, his hobby, is to make the knife. What happened today unpleasant events, no disrespect or want to offend the Mr Jerry Hossom.As far as I know, if conditions permit, Lanshan 1234 or even want to do Jerry Mr. Hossom's apprentice.I want to become a member of ABS.
The main cause of the event today, we have seen people in the production of Loveless, or imitation of other masterpieces. As do not understand the cultural background or industry rules, misunderstand this thing. Please forgive our ignorance and accept our sincere apologies.
Thank you!
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I'm glad for the explanation, China has earned a reputation over the years for not respecting the intellectual property of others, but it is unfair to extend that reputation as a blanket to individual Chinese companies or knifemakers, many of whom have started showing stellar original work or high quality manufacture of licensed collaborations lately.
 
- many, many budding, and even established, makers copy recognised icons of their trade..........is there any harm in that provided there's transparency and admission..?

I am amazed by the photos of 蓝山1234's work - he looks to be meticulous in every way.

His copies - his interpretation's, call it what you will - of Loveless's work that have been shown previously are masterful.

Is it not 'homage' to copy an acknowledged master's work..? What becomes a problem is to try and pass that work off as your own.

One-offs are one thing.........copies, using others original designs, made in serious numbers in a factory, is another thing altogether - let us not mix the two :) :)
 
Agreed, that was a pretty flawless looking copy. As others have stated if you are going to make a reproduction of anothers work you should contact them and ask permission first! And of course post this information along with any photos.
Even the often copied Loveless designs usually contain descriptions such as "my interpretation of the NY special" or "this is my version of the Loveless Big Bear" etc.

I don't think a maker should create an outright copy of a design without permission.

Regards,
Tim
 
i think homage in text with the photos would have been proper. bob was flattered when people copied his stuff. i wonder if the guy who made the first samurai sword was annoyed everyone else copied him ? :)
 
interesting, how the concept of 'intellectual property' is viewed by those who live in communist nations, or perhaps not seen at all.

a capitalist system allows for individual ownership of ideas and concepts, vis a vis patents, and not only that but the whole concept is really a driving force behind the cultures within which capitalism flourishes. This explains the visceral nature of the response to such obvious copies.

makes one wonder how someone from China, who understands the concept of intellectual property from a North American perspective, would regard the legal protectionism of a production company who specializes is selling knives and swords whose designs 'borrow' from ancient Chinese weapons. It's all very strange.
 
It has nothing to do with communism. Copying the work of past masters is a Western Tradition as well.

The statement "individual ownership of ideas and concepts" is in its nature illogical. The "capitalist" system only gives you the right to exclusively use the idea or concept, you don't own it, you own the right to utilize the idea. That's why some people don't patent things, they keep it secret, since once its patented, the idea is "known" and can be modified and repatented. Trouble is, you can't keep a knife "secret", a good example is the Crawford lock that was slightly modified and then patented by AGRussell.
 
brownshoe said:
It has nothing to do with communism. Copying the work of past masters is a Western Tradition as well.

The statement "individual ownership of ideas and concepts" is in its nature illogical. The "capitalist" system only gives you the right to exclusively use the idea or concept, you don't own it, you own the right to utilize the idea. That's why some people don't patent things, they keep it secret, since once its patented, the idea is "known" and can be modified and repatented. Trouble is, you can't keep a knife "secret", a good example is the Crawford lock that was slightly modified and then patented by AGRussell.
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I'm really glad you have posted. I too find the reactions here pretty unfair when I consider:
-it was never indicated what the blade's destination is...it could have been for his own collection
-there is an obvious language barrier that would make it hard to explain the details of it's origin and destination
-the culture and what is valued / inappropriate is very different.
-the very blurred line behind what kind of copying is paying homage to a classic and what is IP theft...especially again given the lack of details surrounding this piece's purpose / for sale status.

There has even recently been a ton of interest in Japanese inspired pieces and Hartsfield style sheaths...I don't know how many sought out his son to ask for his approval? Not that I think it's necessary, but I feel the reaction here needs some perspective.

ETA: Also, as far as I know this guy has never posted anything for sale or even mentioned that his work is available. Seems to just be showing off his skill.
 
I bow to your obviously superior intellect.
 
Mr 1234 sent me an apology and did so here as well. All is good, but this is my living, how I help support my family with four kids, all in braces, two in college, and a new medical bill ever other month or so, so I tend to be somewhat possessive. Since a significant portion of my income comes from licensing my designs to companies who make the knives and pay me royalties, ownership of those designs is important, and when they are copied by one it tends to invite others to do the same and my ownership as well as their novelty becomes a bit obscured, reducing their licensing potential. That's been happening quite a lot of late as ever more people get into knifemaking and look around for ideas. In virtually every case I can remember when someone has asked me if they could make one of my designs, I've said yes, asking only that they publicly acknowledge my authorship and they don't make more than one or two.

Anyway, this has pretty well run its course. But before I go, I'l like to compliment Mr 1234 on an outstanding rendition of one of my signature knives. I had to look at it a couple times to be sure I didn't do it myself. The giveaway? I don't use Desert Ironwood. Otherwise it's as good as anything I do myself. Well done!
 
wildernessknife&tool said:
^^What an endorsement!
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Dare say that it is NOT an endorsement, but instead an acknowledgement of the OP's skill.

A maker copying another maker without giving credit/obtaining approval is STEALING intellectual property, plain and simple.

There can be arguments made when we are talking about very small and subtle design elements, but you would have to be blind, retarded and insane to not know the difference between that and something so stylistically/aesthetically unambiguously belonging to one specific maker.

Ernest Emerson has, as an example, made it very plain that makers/companies using the Wave feature without tacit permission are in violation of his ip rights.

Loveless and Tony Bose have given their designs away for years, and that is their choice....but Jerry Hossom has made a very clear case in this thread that he doesn't approve of his designs being appropriated by other entities without permission, and that should be respected.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
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brownshoe said:
Tony Bose gives away his patterns and his knowledge. Loveless as well. He assisted many makers in reproducing his work. They both also had/have strong sales in production models of their knives. For thousands of years, imitation of past artistic work is a respected way to develop ones talents.

But then I guess you all know better...

Keep up the good work 蓝山1234, I've been looking at your work since 2010 when you joined. If people had bothered to pay attention, they would have seen you are honorable and were not intending to produce and sell fake Hossom knives. Instead of jumping to a negative conclusion, all they needed to do was review your past threads. Don't be discouraged.
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If I search here long enough , surely I will find this ancient roman design .... To who then to pay for a loan of design , maybe to Julius Caesar?

If you have a patent you have the right to sue .If you do not have patent and you announced publicly your work ......I can copy each knife to the smallest detail ,BUT ................. what sells knife is the name of maker /mark/ on it ...and have a real price . Someone can copy any of Loveless knive , but will never have the price of the original Loveless , never .............


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