refusal of ABS submission knives?

NickWheeler

NickWheeler

Joined
Dec 3, 1999
Messages
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As I've heard various stories on different makers' knives being refused by the ABS during judging for either the JS or MS stamp...

I've become curious as to experiences by makers or knowledge of collectors here as to this happening.

I'd like to hear the feelings of forum members on this topic... :)

Thanks,
Nick
 
I have not personally heard stories regarding refusal. If and when it does happen I would think it would only be for reasons that the knife did not meet basic criteria.
 
Nick
I do not understand. If a knife was refused it as Gus said did not meet critera, for examples autos are not allowed because they are not legal. Masters art daggers must be 10 inch in blade length etc.
If you know of anything other than this please let me know and I will clear it up.
What the judging is about is simply seeing how good/consistant the quality is of the maker on various pieces submitted.
jf
 
Yes Burke, that's what it was in reference to, and a couple other stories I've heard along those lines for other makers. Just curious...

Nick
 
Ed admits that his dagger had an insignificant blade, which probably means that it did not make the 10 inch minimum and that is why it was refused. Maybe Ed could clarify this if he notices this thread.
 
At the time that blade was submitted, there was no 10 inch blade length requirement. At that time, the quillion "ART" dagger was termed an art knife. There have been many discussions and changes since that time. At that time the dagger was not even required to be of damascus steel.

I would like to see a lot of changes in the way things are done, for example, I feel a master should be offered the option of making a knife that truly represents art, not copy. He would naturally need to justify or explain his art to the judges. No man can dictate art to another, this is where the early european quillian art falls on its face, pretty, maybe, art to some, but not all. The master should be able to create art, origonal art.

I have seen knives that failed due to obvious faulty craftmanship. This is good, what ever a master makes should be without fault, although no knife is perfect. It is just how insignificant the errors are. Masters are made my chasing that last scratch, but they got to have vision.
 
I hope that the ABS is doing all it can to help to inspire it's members. It is my view that knife makers are true artists and that this artistic part of them should be nurtured. That should be, and I hope is, a goal of the ABS and the Knifemakers Guild. Free thinking and vision should be rewarded.
 
Well, I guess I have some opinions (and we all know what an opinion is worth ;) ).

I guess while I appreciate what Ed is saying about art, I can't really agree on the MS testing.

I would think a test for this would have to be similar in nature to any test in that it MUST HAVE standards for which all participants shall be judged. If you have given types of knives to create, then the judging can be done on an equal level with all applying smiths.

Once the stamp is obtained that smith is free to express his personal passion for blades anyway that he or she wants.

Now if the beef is simply with the dagger being named an "art knife" then that's a whole other story.

Nick

I better not step on too many toes as I'll be going up for this test in 5 years (or 4 if I can make it to the ABS school :p :D :p
 
As a consignee (of occasional MS test daggers) I have been involved in this a little from the outside.

Like Nick states this is just an opinion (and it holds less than his does since I am only a collector). A while back I asked a maker about his Master's Dagger and we shook hands on it and started design. We starting getting a little artsy (lost wax carving of silver and gold. Stone handle and fancy pommel etc. Once we realized that we needed to tone it down a little or the dagger would not qualify for judging, I began to think about it. By establishing some guidelines the A.B.S. (esp Judges) are able to keep the judging to a more level playing field than if the guidelines were not in place.

My thought is that the judges can be more objective when those guidelines are in place. None of those guys wants to have to tell a maker who has spent a few months or longer in making their test knives that the knife did not pass for one reason or another on a techinicality. The guidlines give a maker a strong indication of what needs to be done and give the judges a basis to judge the knives as fairly as possible.

I learned a valuable lesson there in ordering Master Smith test knives. Let the maker do the entire design. If he gets out of hand with the design, get him to talk about it with some knowledgable A.B.S. members to make sure the design will fall in line with the requirements.

It would be a thought to include an art-knife (with no restrictions)in one of the five. My thoughts on the quillion dagger come from expressions of makers who have stated that it is the one of the most difficult styles to make. By sticking to a set of standards the judges can evaluate the knife-making skills much more readily.

I do like the idea of a no-holds barred knife for judging, but then the doors are open for more subjectivity in the judging.

The A.B.S. is blessed with some of the finest makers around at it's helm. In judging and contests that I have heard about, they strive to keep the field as level as possible and in the cases when I have asked the reasons for the some of the rules and decisions they have always been sound.

Just the thoughts of a collector.
 
Dang Gus, you been in that room somewhere?
You were right on the dagger. We has so many interpertations it was hard to judge fairly. So it was established for the Quillion dagger. It is hard. It is required. Pattern welded damascus is required. We had some to submit cable damascus so we had to change that.
However the other 4 pieces is up to the maker. He can "express" himself or whatever he wants to do with himself. It makes no difference if they are Japanese styles, Bowies, swords or any other ethnic design. As long as it is done cleanly and the designs and workmanship are good for what he is trying to do. Your style is not judged, simply your design and your workmanship. This is the way it has always been. If a knife is turned down or refused it is because it did not meet the standards for good workmanship. The judges are always very careful to judge fairly. For myself I do not care if it is my mother going for the stamps. No is No. I have failed some very good friends of mine. I lost one over it. That is sad but you got to tow the line.
Nick, do not worry about it. It makes no difference if you upset or offend anyone before going for your stamp. I have passed some people I do not like but their work is good and that is what you go by. Hope this helps.
fisk
 
In my earlier post I did not point out that what I was expressing was my opinion and only that. I do feel that you have to have guidelines and that they have to be followed.

While I do agree with Nick that all tests have to graded to a certain standard, I was marked higher in many of my tests because my answers showed creativity and individuality. It depended on the teacher and the subject. This type of grading made me try to come up with my own particular way of doing things rather than just repeating what others had done before me. This has aided me in things that I have done in later years and I thank those that encouraged my creativity and did not just grade me on the correctness of my answers.

When you are able to do about anything you want with the other four knives that are submitted, it does not seem to be such a bad thing to have one knife that must be made to preset standard.
 
My objection to the 'Early European Quillion Art Dagger' rests absolutely with the word art. Call it the Early European Jump Through The Hoop Dagger" and I have no qualms about it. I personally see absolutely no art in that knife. I would not choose one for a companion anywhere, any place. This is my personal feeling, and I hold no ill thoughts to those who like them. I did not sign the one that passed and it still remains unsigned. I felt at the time and still feel that I prostituted my soul when I made the knife that passed. The blade that passed by the way was wire damascus, heat treated to the absolute limit of its potential. The rule against wire damascus immediately followed.
 
Are why do you have to be a member of the ABS N years before being allowed to enter. And why is sword not one of the requirements. The difficulty is so much higher...

JD
 
I see no problem with the way the ABS works with it's membership. In any trade first you must go to school, then you have to apprentice, then you become a Journeyman then you become a Master or a Tradesman. The ABS should be no different.


Edited so that what I posted would be understandable.
 
Ed
Sounds like you have personal issues to work out. Also to refresh your memory damascus blades have been required as long as they have asked for dagger blades.
Joss
The reason there is a time frame is so that the practicing smith has as much advantage as possible before going for his stamp. In the 3 year min.requirement from Joining to JS stamp it is hoped that not only on your own but that you will work with other smiths to learn as much as possible. The whole thing about getting your JS and MS is not about money but about stretching the boundries of what you know. For most people time practicing and the doing of, helps that.
To make a sword really right by the time they got their stamps would be pushing the minium time frame for most smiths just starting out, in my opinion.
jf
 
Sorry Jerry, you are dead wrong. In the old rules, damascus was not specified. When I was starting my first dagger there was nothing in writing about a requirement for damascus. I asked Bill Moran if damascus was mandatory, he said and I quote "No one has ever asked that question before." The next set of rules specified damascus for the dagger.

A personal issue, you bet it is personal, that is the way I operate. I am not trying to degrade the ABS. They are the only organization that even considers performance as a requirement. Without the ABS many of us would be a long time achieving what Bill Moran freely shared with us years ago. I strongly feel that somehow the abilities of our membership should have grown in the past 20 years beyond the levels of performance and "art" knives demonstrated at the beginning. Without growth organizations have a way of withering away, I don't want to see this happen to the ABS.
 
Ed
I recived my MS in 89. I was informed when I started working on it in '88 that damascus was required on the dagger. And you are right at that time there was not a restriction on the type nor size of daggers. Cable was allowed then disallowed shortly after the year you got your stamp.

There has been changes slowly to improve things as it goes. There will continue to be changes to improve both on the JS and the JS levels so that all may benifit. This is reguards to testing in both cutting and finish work. Again you are right in that only the ABS in this country requires performance among knife guilds or groups. It brings up the level of the others. There has been contravsery over the cutting test alone but they have changed over the years as well. Change is good as long as it strengthens the group as a whole and does not benifit any one small bunch within the society.
We must have both art and performance if we intend to have much growth both as makers and as a Society. Art is how each person precieves it. I never cared for the painting of Whistlers Mother. But obvious many people do. I still like the dogs playing poker but both are considered an art form. One simply has more class than the other. All this is to simply say that both must go together and there must be standards. If nothing is ever same from year to year it is hard to set a standard. There must be at least one piece that is a standard. That is the quillion dagger.

Personally and this is my thinking only it is not the thinking of the abs board nor is it best for the abs at this time so I would never push this. My opinion of what a master is that an appliciant should submit a dagger, a sword a folder and bowie and a knife of his choice. A smith that could submitt all of those with equally high workmanship is a true Master but there is not a dozen guys in the country that could do so. I certainly do not qualify for what I call a true master but I am going to continue to improve whenever I can so that I can get closer to what I call a true master. The more I study old pieces of good quality the more humbled I become.
 
An interesting idea Jerry. I wonder how many would be discouraged from trying to be a Master Smith if the requirements you mentioned were used. Maybe there should be an equivalent to a PHD in bladesmithing that one could try to attain after getting his Masters stamp. The requirements that you have posted would be a great test to reach this level. It would be interesting to see how many would try to go this far.
 
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