Regarding "Knock off Alert"

averageguy

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Everbody is getting upset about some cheap Strider copies. Cheap copies have been around for a long time. So what. Everybody who buys one of these knows they are getting a cheap knife - even the unninitiated. Frankly, I think they are fun. I wouldn't mind owning that big Strider machette knock off - street price, probably $30.00.
What bothers me more are people who offer their modified Pakistani or Kit knives as customs. See this link for an example:
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=cougari&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=25
I think this is much more harmful to custom makers and more damaging to the hobby. For the buyers of these type knives "Custom" equates to Pakistani quality levels. It seems likely that after such an experience the new collector will be less enthusiastic to continue to invest in knives.
 
Those knives ( ebay ) make me wanna barf and laugh at the same time. Yes they do hurt the industry, as stated if someone buys one, they'll likely be turned off from customs forever. It makes me laugh cuz this guy is getting CPM 420V from Solingen, hmmmm, I thought any steel with a CPM designation came from Crucible. Oh and those knives do look like a fried **** IMO. -- Charles

BTW, I'm not fond of ripped off designs either, licensed copies are one thing, but I doubt the boys at Strider authorized these.
 
Hey, averageguy, would you mind if I stole your car?

Probably.

You worked long and hard to make the money to buy that car. It's your property. It would be illegal and also morally wrong and sinful for me to steal it.

The design of a knife is property! Legally, it is property. Morally it is property.

Just as you worked long and hard to make money, a knife designer/maker worked long and hard on the design. You may think that a designer/maker just sits down with a pad of paper on day when there's only re-runs on the tube and quick sketches up a briliant knife. But, most are the result of hundreds of hours, hundreds of revisions, and a dozen or more expensive, hand-made prototypes. Just as the money you make and the car you buy with it is your property, a design for a knife and any money to be made from it is the property of the designer/maker -- again, both legally and morally.

Earlier this year, we had a very belligerent member on this forum who was a dealer trying to sell such knives. The question he asked me was, "If I can't aford a $400 knife, should I still be deprived of a great design?"

My question to him was, "What if I can't aford the $20 you're charging for the copy? Should I be deprived too? Or should I break into your store and steal one of yours?"

A manufacturer/maker/designer has the legal and ethical right to sell his products for whatever he wants to. And if you can't aford the asking price, well that's just to bad. You might suggest that they'd sell more if they'd lower the price, but the design is not yours and so neither is that decision. If you don't like the price, then you don't have to buy the knife.

If you still want a knife that you can't afford, well then that's a problem that you are going to have to resolve for yourself. But it is not right for you to force the manufacturer/maker/designer to solve your problem by giving up his profit which is what you do when you steal his design.

Furthermore, these cheap rip-offs DO tanish the image of the higher-quality knives the resemble. If you loan your cheapie Strider-rip-off to a friend and it performs poorly for him and later your friend is at a knife shop looking for a new knife that he won't have to keep borrowing your POS, and he sees a genuine Strider, he may say to himself, "That's the POS knife that old averageguy's got. I'm not gonna buy that." And Strider just lost a sale.

Know this: these rip-offs are illegal. They are morally wrong. And buying them is unethical and hurts the manufacturers, makers, and designers who created the originals.
 
First, I've yet to see a knock off that is an exact copy. It is in fact the numerous small (and some not so small) details that account for the large difference in price. Again, no one is buying one of these cheap copies and assuming they have purchased a fine knife.

The person who buys a $30.00 Strider look alike is not the target market for Strider. Makers of $400.00 knives aren't looking to dominate in the sub $50.00 market.
One of the first knives I ever bought was a United copy of an Al Mar Warrior. It cost $25.00. Seven years later I regularly spend 10 times that much.
If the entry price to knife collecting was $400.00 there would be a lot fewer of us doing it. These makers of inexpensive knives introduce many (likely most) to the world of knife collecting. Collectors who, once immersed in our little world, are willing to spend virtually all of their discretionary income to buy nice custom and production knives.
 
I have found in my experiance that the folks that dont mind the rippoffs have never done anything in their life that they can call their own. Thats just me though.
 
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and those who buy by price alone are this man's lawful prey." --John Ruskin

Knock-offs are a cheap way for newbies to get into knives, but they may not be very good knives. Companies like Camillus or Cold Steel (same thing :) ) or Case offer inexpensive knives that will provide professional levels of performance -- you can do real work with them, even if they aren't as polished as more expensive versions.

Let's not call everything a knock-off that happens to look sort of like another knife, though. Certain basic patterns have been around for a long time, and just because one company popularizes a style, doesn't mean no one else can make anything like it.

Knock-offs may be immoral, you decide that for yourself, but they are generally not illegal. They're not necessarily junk, either. What is pretty clearly wrong is when they copy an entire line, with intent ot deceive the uninitiated into thinking they are a legitimate version of the original.

((I just got a catalog from Frost today ... :rolleyes: ))
 
Originally posted by averageguy
Again, no one is buying one of these cheap copies and assuming they have purchased a fine knife.

I have come across people who could not tell the difference between my Emerson CQC-7B, Spyderco Endura, and Cold Steel Voyager from their knock offs. They also think I'm wierd for spending so much more for the "same knife." :eek:

Needless to say, they are not knife knuts.:)
 
I have come across people who could not tell the difference between my Emerson CQC-7B, Spyderco Endura, and Cold Steel Voyager from their knock offs.

Exactly!

These people assume that the genuine Emerson is the same as the cheap knock-off. And that hurts Mr. Emerson's image and reputation. Legally, it's called, "confusing the market."


but they are generally not illegal.

A true knock-off in which the original design has been followed closely, in which distinctive features are copied, in which copyrighted, trademarked, or even patented features such as The Wave, are duplicated, such a knock-off CERTAINLY IS ILLEGAL. Legally, it is called, "infrignment," and/or "theft of intellectual property." Theft!



Certain basic patterns have been around for a long time, and just because one company popularizes a style, doesn't mean no one else can make anything like it.

That depends... Mercedes Benz has been making cars with a logo that consists of a three-point star in a circle since 1921. There everywhere. You see them on the road all the time. It's a "popular style." And I can assure you that if you started up a new car company and started to make cars with a similar logo, you'd be in court before the paint was dry on your first floor model.

The fact that something has been around a long time, the fact that it's popular, does NOT make it public domain.

There are some aspects of a knife that are generic and quite public. I'd have a hard time patenting a new invention consisting of a metal bar ground to a sharp edge on one side. The Patent and Trademark Office would say, "Sorry, no. That's public domain." Some shapes for a blade are also generic and public domain. The classic Tanto, for example. You couldn't patent it; you couldn't trademark it. But if someone comes up with a distinctive new shape, then that can be patented and/or trademarked.

Like it or not, Mr. Emerson has been granted a patent on "The Wave." If you don't think that he should have been granted that patent, then you can challenge it in court. There is a legal procedure for that. But, "I don't like it," or "I don't like the fact that he's now charging more money for it than I think it's worth and want to buy it at a cheaper price," are not good reasons for the courts to invalidate a patent. You may not like it, but until a court invalidates it or until Mr. Emerson abandons it, Mr. Emerson does have a legal patent on The Wave. Any knives that incorporate that feature as defined in his patent ARE illegal.





The person who buys a $30.00 Strider look alike is not the target market for Strider.

Then why did they buy it?

Of course they're in Strider's target market. What is Strider's "target market" if not "people who want a knife like this..."

If you want a Strider knife, but you can't afford one, that's not Strider's problem. That's your problem. You either have to decide that you're not going to be able to afford that knife and set your heart on something else, or you're going to have to save your pennies until you can. But to go and buy a rip-off of Strider's design is to penalize Strider for your problem.




Here's an interesting question: Why do some companies make knock-off knives instead of designing their own?

Maybe it's because they don't have the tallent to design a creative, innovative knife. But that's because they're to cheap to pay for a designer or to buy a design from an established designer. So, they just steal someone else's design. But that is outright stealing. If you're to cheap to buy your own car, does that give you the right to just steal someone else's? Of course not.

Maybe it's because they don't want to have to pay to advertize and market their own knife. They'd prefer to must ride the popularity of someone else's work. But, again, that is downright stealing. If you're to cheap to buy your own car, does that give you the right to just ride along with anyone else you choose who happens to be going in the direction you'd like to go in? Of course not.

or

Maybe it's because they want the prestige and reputation that the other brand name has. They don't want to put in the effort to develope their own brand and their own reputation, so they just make a product that looks like the other brand's and hope that people will assume that it's the same. But, again, this is stealing. You're stealing the good name and reputation that the other brand has invested in for years. If you're drowning, do you have the right to grab onto someone who is swimming by and pull them down with you? Of course not.



But, it was all summed up quite well by my friend Mr. Simonich, "folks that dont mind the rippoffs have never done anything in their life that they can call their own." A perfect analysis. I've said it before, but I'll say it again: there's a sharp mind under that big hat.
 
Originally posted by Esav Benyamin
Let's not call everything a knock-off that happens to look sort of like another knife, though. Certain basic patterns have been around for a long time, and just because one company popularizes a style, doesn't mean no one else can make anything like it.

Originally posted by Gollnick
That depends... Mercedes Benz has been making cars with a logo that consists of a three-point star in a circle since 1921. There everywhere. You see them on the road all the time. It's a "popular style." And I can assure you that if you started up a new car company and started to make cars with a similar logo, you'd be in court before the paint was dry on your first floor model.

The fact that something has been around a long time, the fact that it's popular, does NOT make it public domain.

I think you're both right, but just referring to different things. What Esav Benyamin would be talking about would be something like a "Bowie" style blade, and what Chuck's referring to would be something like the Emerson Wave.
 
imho, there are way too many decent knives in the $20 to $50 range to worry w/any POS pak rip offs, i dont understand why anyone would buy them, myself (ie CRKT/kershaw/gerber/etc).

the patent thing is like rolex watches, look at all the fakes, and, incredibly, i have heard of people buying a fake rolex thinking they were getting a real one, kinda hard for me to believe, but i guess it could happen. one guy on the net, fakegifts.com sold fake rolex/omega/TAG/etc a large line of stuff, he said rolex can never touch me, i live in another state, the anonymity of the net, rolex aint got time, etc - well, rolex did have the time, and he is in gfed prison now, i understand.

leave the fake stuff alone, it all sucks anyway, would rather have a real citizen watch than a fake rolex president, as well as a real CRKT vs a fake strider (or BM/etc)

greg
 
Originally posted by averageguy
First, I've yet to see a knock off that is an exact copy. It is in fact the numerous small (and some not so small) details that account for the large difference in price. Again, no one is buying one of these cheap copies and assuming they have purchased a fine knife.
Here ya go, a virtual clone!!!! This is the knife used to scam a formite out of more than $200.

To touch this POS is repulsive.
Edited for spelling!!
 
No Greg. It was purported to be a Strider and sold as a Strider. It is as close to a Strider MT, minus any quality whatsoever.
It is marked "Stainless steel" and "MADE IN CHINA":mad:

and what knife is this one below? Does it leave anything to the imagination? Could you tall the difference from 10 feet away?
 
"It is marked "Stainless steel" and "MADE IN CHINA""

Yes, This is one of the not so little differences I was referring to.
Again, I reiterate that many of us started collecting when we purchased an inexpensive knife somewhere. We bought it because it looked cool and the price was right. While the design may have been a rip off, we probably did not recognize it as such. One would have to be pretty naive to assume they had purchased a fine knife given the price. Such a person likely equates a KIA with an Aston, and a happy person they must be.

If a cool looking knife starts someone into the world of knife collecting - I say great.

I promise you that Strider is not targeting this market, just like Aston is not targeting the young lady who waited on you at the drive through this morning.

Yes, a unique feature like the wave warrants a patent. But a similarity in appearance - well as they say, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

As far as the "Strider" above, looks like somebody got ripped on Ebay.
I'm not suggesting for a second that a rip off should be represented as the real thing.

In our world designs are copied all the time. From fashion to motherboards. The market will find away to accomodate every niche.

"folks that dont mind the rippoffs have never done anything in their life that they can call their own"
My two year old is creative in a unique way every day.
My friend, If your claim to being unique lies in the fact that you are a maker or collector of knives - than that which you "call your own" is somewhat limited and fairly insignificant outside of our little circle.
 
Rip-offs are BS. They are one company that has no imagination that finds successful designs of other companies and then steels them. If these companies weren't doing this they would be pirating music or movies and selling that. They have no ethics whatsoever and I will never support this kind of company.

Personally I don't believe that a very high percentage of the people that buy these knives are impressed enough by them to want to see what knives that are better made and cost more would be like. Sure it happens, but in my opinion, most of these people will continue purchasing this crap because they don't know or care that there are better knives out there.
 
like rolex watches, look at all the fakes, and, incredibly, i have heard of people buying a fake rolex thinking they were getting a real one, kinda hard for me to believe, but i guess it could happen.

When I see someone wearing a fancy Rolex watch, I immediately think to myself, "It's doubtlessly fake." There are a lot more fake Rolexes (or is it Roli?) in the world than real ones, maybe 10 to 1. And that has deteriorated the market value of Rolex watches. I'd never buy one because I know that people would look at it and think, "It's probably fake."

Part of the value of a Rolex watch is its exclusivity, its brand name and pedigree. The people who make fakes are stealing that. They actively seek to enrich the value of their own product while simultaneously hurting the value of Rolex's.

Why does anyone steal something? Because they want something that they are unable or unwilling to earn for themselves. These companies are unable or unwilling to build a brand name and a reputation for themselves so they look to steal someone else's.

That is wrong morally and wrong legally and to support them by buying their products is equally wrong.
 
Consider our mutual friend Mike Turber. He's currently working to build a new brand name, BOSS Knives. Most (if not all) of the BOSS knives are being made by Asian factories, doubtlessly some of the same factories that produce the rip-off knives we're discussing here. Many of the BOSS knives have been designed by well-known designers and makers. But these will not be rip-offs because those designers and makers have agreed to license their designs to BOSS and they're being fairly compensated. Mike is working very closely with these companies to help them make these knives the best possible quality in their price range.

Mike and BOSS face an uphill battle to establish the BOSS reputation and brand name. But, if they succeed, then what they have will be their own.
 
Well it is true tha5t 20-30 years ago I purely hated to see Parker, Sargetn or Taylor stealing my designs. The fact is that the knife industry has always jumped on any new knife design and if one came up with a copperhead then everybody had a copperhead. All selling was done on trademark rather than design.

If you want to protect a design you MUST patent, copyright or trademark it. If you are not willing to take the time and spend the money there is no point in crying when somebody else takes your design and out sells you with it.

I have seen shame used to collect royalties when there was NO legal way to get them otherwise. 40 years ago this would have been laughed at. If there was not legal protection and sometimes even then no little fella waas protected from the big outfits.

I kind of wish I had something hot enough to be constantly ripped off. Maybe next year.

A. G.
 
I know a couple of guys who buy the knock offs by the handful and parade them around like someone who found an original Picasso at a garage sale. They do know they're buying crap, in fact that's why they buy them. They hand them out like trail mix.

I own 3 knives. A Microtech, a Wegner jr. and a Phil Wilson fillet knife. These guys think I'm nuts. They will never buy a quality knife, because as they say, "I just lose them, and when these (their knock offs) fall apart I'm just get another handful."

While a agree, copping other's designs is theft, in the end, they're selling the knock offs to people who are never going to buy the orignal ones anyway. It's annoying as hell, but I doubt it truly screws the designer out of money he would otherwise get. The answer may be for designers and manufacturers of the good ones to make grades, at a lower price, using lesser steel, fewer bells and whistles and less exacting engineering, for the tasteless masses. My observation is surely anecdotal, and this is just a thought. But why not try to out-compete the knock off producers?
 
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