REKAT Carnivour...real nice, or pretender?

JoHnYKwSt · Nov 14, 1999

Let's not forget the Integral lock.

The RL has nudged out the Axis in sheer brute strength,

How do you know this? To my knowledge they have not been tested to failure head to head.

Also who cares? Has anyone ever seen or experienced a liner lock or any of the above mentioned locks that were defeated because of its strength? Remember, when we cut we put pressure away from the lock. I have yet to hear about or experience a defeated Axis, Rolling, or Integral lock. Let's stop talking about strength and how one lock is better than another because it is stronger. Although lock strength does have some importance, with these locks, other issues are far more important.

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Johnny
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RKnight · Nov 15, 1999

Bob,

Thanks for setting the record straight.

The last thing I want to do is propagate something which is untrue.

Again, thanks.

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Regards,
Ron Knight

Yeah I'm crazy, but what do you want me to do about it

misque · Nov 15, 1999

JoHnYKwST,
Your correct in that as far as I know, the two were not tested head to head. I'm basing my statement on prior separate test results that I've read that state the Axis lock will withstand approximately 200 lbs. of pressure while the Rolling lock will take over 490 lbs. Or, are those measurements in inch/pounds? Can't remember right now.
Anyway, from what I've read, it looks like the RL is the stronger of the two.
You say that other things are more important than lock strength. Like what?
Ergonomics? Yeah.
Blade pattern? Yeah.
Aesthetics? Well, to a degree.
Edge geometry? Okay.
I still think lock strength is the number one issue that should be addressed when discussing folders.
Lock strength is important to me because I place a very high value on my pinkies. Hard to grip a knife without'em.
You are correct in that the pressure being exerted on the blade is directed away from the lock. However, I've had a knife turn while I was cutting and it ended up on the spine side down with my weight pushing on it. (Somehow slipped and the knife did a 180 on me). Fortunately, the lock (it was a lockback) did not fail. For me it was an eye opening experience. Hence my seeming pre-occupation with lock strength. Paranoid? Yes. Absolutely.
I've not experienced any problem with Axis or Rolling lock yet, so your right in that statement also, at least in my experience.

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If a person with multiple personalities threatens suicide, is that considered a hostage situation?

RKnight · Nov 16, 1999

It's not sheer strenghth. I have no doubt the RL when locked is the strongest.

It's not lock failure in this case, it's failure to lock.

After all is said and done, the integral lock is probably by far the best.

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Regards,
Ron Knight

Yeah I'm crazy, but what do you want me to do about it

stjames · Nov 16, 1999

Lock reliability is more important than brute strength, as any one of the locks discussed will withstand more pressure than could be applied manually. In this regard the integral lock stands above the crowd.

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James Segura
San Francisco, CA

JoHnYKwSt · Nov 16, 1999

Sorry if I was not clear in my initial post.

I said:

Although lock strength does have some importance, with these locks, other issues are far more important.

These other issues are, lock smoothness, lock simplicity, how well the lock holds the blade closed, etc. But the most important and the one I was referring to when I made my post is lock reliability.

We've heard about lock failures. Many if not all of these failures come from liner locks. The reason liner locks fail has nothing to do with it's strength. It almost always fails because the liner slips off the blade tang due to a sudden shock. It may also slip off if there is gunk in the liner/tang area. For example blood, juice, etc. Which is why galling can be a good thing. Another reason liner locks fail is because the knife is torqued and the liner moves and slips off the blade tang. This is one of the reasons why there is talk about how flexible a knife handle is. "Is the handle of my Military, which has one liner more flexible than an AFCK, which has two liners?"

To measure a locks strength, the lock would fail in such a way that the lock would no longer be usable. If a liner lock failed because of it's strength, the liner would bend and buckle. If an axis lock fails because of strength, the pin would have to sheer, and/or the two liners would deform. An Integral lock's locking bar would deform. You get the idea.

The axis lock, rolling lock, integral lock, and even the lock back are far less susceptible to torquing and slippage failures.

Now that you know what I mean by lock strength, I'll ask again, has anyone ever seen a lock failure that had to do with strength? Highly unlikely.

Misque,

I believe the axis lock withstood 200 negetive pounds at the lock. Something like that. I think whoever measured this, (probably Benchmade) they measured it differently, than how the rolling lock was rated. Sal Glesser said the rolling lock failed at over 1000 lbs. This is with pressure applied 2 inches from the pivot. If it withstood 1000lbs at the pivot you can expect the lock to have held much more than 1000lbs. If this is how much the lock itself took, then if you're using your knife do not expect to put 1000 lbs on the knife and expect it to hold. If the Axis lock holds 200 lbs according to Sals rating system, then it barely passes Sals standards for a locking knife. The weakest Spyderco lock holds at least 200 lbs. The axis lock certainly should do better than this. My point is the person that measured the axis lock's strength probably did it differently than how Spyderco does it, hence you cannot compare these two numbers.

One last thing, the Sebenza tested at over 400 lbs before failing. The Military did better than the Sebenza. And some people started a whining. "How can that 100 dollar knife be stronger than my 300 dollar knife?" Chris has never had a sebenza return in which the lock failed due to strength. Strength is not the issue.

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Johnny
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misque · Nov 16, 1999

Perhaps you guys are right. I doubt any human could generate 400-1000lbs.
Thanks for clarifying and clearing up the issues for me, guys.

Sebenza AND the Military really held >400lbs, eh?
I had no idea!

This is why I love this place.
I learn something new every time I log on.

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If a person with multiple personalities threatens suicide, is that considered a hostage situation?

[This message has been edited by misque (edited 16 November 1999).]

REKAT Carnivour...real nice, or pretender?

JoHnYKwSt

RKnight

misque

RKnight

stjames

Sebenzanista

JoHnYKwSt

misque