REKAT Fraud?
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Bob Taylor
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sigurd
I have no idea where you got that but we have never sold 1095 as ATS-34 I have never heard of anyone doing this either. To Accuse without proof is fraud. Frankly it pisses me off.
A magnet will stick to a 1095 guard and nbot a ATS-34 guard.
Bob Taylor
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Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints and escaping.
I have no idea where you got that but we have never sold 1095 as ATS-34 I have never heard of anyone doing this either. To Accuse without proof is fraud. Frankly it pisses me off.
A magnet will stick to a 1095 guard and nbot a ATS-34 guard.
Bob Taylor
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Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints and escaping.
Jim March
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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That sort of exchange wouldn't even make sense. ATS34 is more expensive than 1095, a LOT more expensive. And the difference in corrosion resistance is high enough that a substitution the other way would be quickly discovered in the field.
REKAT does relatively high-end pieces that go to people who know cutlery and would spot any such substitution fairly quickly, especially if it happened a lot.
Now, is it possible ONE such mislabeled critter slipped out the door? Maybe...I'd believe that long before I believed deliberate fraud. It's no use even speculating until we know what was really said, by whom, and when - "I read it in a post" is just BS. Point to the dang URL, at the very least.
Jim
REKAT does relatively high-end pieces that go to people who know cutlery and would spot any such substitution fairly quickly, especially if it happened a lot.
Now, is it possible ONE such mislabeled critter slipped out the door? Maybe...I'd believe that long before I believed deliberate fraud. It's no use even speculating until we know what was really said, by whom, and when - "I read it in a post" is just BS. Point to the dang URL, at the very least.
Jim
So you automatically assume that I am bull*****ing you. And that I make accusations. I'll tell you what it pisses me off to be discredited by you in such an arrogant and impolite manner. http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum22/HTML/000070.html
And second to accuse without proof is NOT fraud. Fraud is to mislead or lie. Not to have a "proof" does simply mean that one doesnt have a proof.
So get yourselves som damned manners!
If I did misunderstand your post then I merely asked a stupid question, I did not "accuse" you of anything.
Here is the post for anyone concerned.
...
Quote:
Phil Squire
There have been three people grinding the neck knives Bob Brothers, myself and Bill Amorue so between Washington and Idaho.There were some ATS-34 BlackT knives but to be frank the ATS-34 bombed so we wraped up all those by using the stonewashed finish and some were just sold as 1095 with BlackT.
There are no more ATS-34 blanks they have been long gone. So 1095 and ATS were the only ones we made.
Hope that answeres your questions
Bob Taylor
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Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints and escaping.
[This message has been edited by sigurd (edited 06-26-2000).]
And second to accuse without proof is NOT fraud. Fraud is to mislead or lie. Not to have a "proof" does simply mean that one doesnt have a proof.
So get yourselves som damned manners!
If I did misunderstand your post then I merely asked a stupid question, I did not "accuse" you of anything.
Here is the post for anyone concerned.
...
Quote:
Phil Squire
There have been three people grinding the neck knives Bob Brothers, myself and Bill Amorue so between Washington and Idaho.There were some ATS-34 BlackT knives but to be frank the ATS-34 bombed so we wraped up all those by using the stonewashed finish and some were just sold as 1095 with BlackT.
There are no more ATS-34 blanks they have been long gone. So 1095 and ATS were the only ones we made.
Hope that answeres your questions
Bob Taylor
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Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints and escaping.
[This message has been edited by sigurd (edited 06-26-2000).]
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Sigurd -
First off, with a title like "REKAT fraud?" and statements like -
Second, if you are going to make a statement like that, it's best if you provide more groundwork so that people don't go flying off the handle at you. That was one hell of an accussation to make, especially if you don't have anything solid to back it up with - and it's not hard on the internet to make a false claim look real.
Third, your reasoning is a bit faulty here.
Finally, the thread you did point do doesn't have any mention of ATS knives being sold as 1095.
The 1095 models have always been a good deal less expensive than the ATS models, but the neck knives have always been great values regardless.
Spark
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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com
Insert witty quip here
First off, with a title like "REKAT fraud?" and statements like -
you should probably be worrying more about your interpersonal and communications skills than those of Bob Taylor.
Second, if you are going to make a statement like that, it's best if you provide more groundwork so that people don't go flying off the handle at you. That was one hell of an accussation to make, especially if you don't have anything solid to back it up with - and it's not hard on the internet to make a false claim look real.
Third, your reasoning is a bit faulty here.
Finally, the thread you did point do doesn't have any mention of ATS knives being sold as 1095.
The 1095 models have always been a good deal less expensive than the ATS models, but the neck knives have always been great values regardless.
Spark
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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com
Insert witty quip here
Im started to get very confused here. I wont start to quarrel here even though I want to.
I simply got angry because of the treatment I got from asking a question. I do not mean to accuse anybody of anything they have not done - to me it seemed like Bob stood by the sale of ATS-34 blades as 1095 blades.
I can not provide any proof of the action nor of course claim that it is true.
But in all sincerety can anyone just explain to me in different words what this statement means: quote BT>There were some ATS-34 BlackT knives but to be frank the ATS-34 bombed so we wraped up all those by using the stonewashed finish and some were just sold as 1095 with BlackT.
I simply got angry because of the treatment I got from asking a question. I do not mean to accuse anybody of anything they have not done - to me it seemed like Bob stood by the sale of ATS-34 blades as 1095 blades.
I can not provide any proof of the action nor of course claim that it is true.
But in all sincerety can anyone just explain to me in different words what this statement means: quote BT>There were some ATS-34 BlackT knives but to be frank the ATS-34 bombed so we wraped up all those by using the stonewashed finish and some were just sold as 1095 with BlackT.
Yah, I can see how I should have posted the quote in the first message. But still, what does the statement mean, if not that they somekind of fooled someone to buy knives in a different material than they thought they did?
And I would like you to explain to me how my reasoning faulters, because I can not see it myself.
Dit it mean that they merely sold it at the same price as the ATS-34 versions?
That would explain it for me and in that case I regret to have made the wrong assumption.
So please clarify.
sigurd
[This message has been edited by sigurd (edited 06-26-2000).]
[This message has been edited by sigurd (edited 06-26-2000).]
And I would like you to explain to me how my reasoning faulters, because I can not see it myself.
Dit it mean that they merely sold it at the same price as the ATS-34 versions?
That would explain it for me and in that case I regret to have made the wrong assumption.
So please clarify.
sigurd
[This message has been edited by sigurd (edited 06-26-2000).]
[This message has been edited by sigurd (edited 06-26-2000).]
Jim March
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Sigurd, what I labeled "BS" was your making such a claim without any reference whatsoever to where you heard such a thing.
How can REKAT be expected to explain or rebutt a claim of "I heard on a post..."?
Think about it. Then read my words above: I did NOT call you a liar, I said that making such a statement without any backing whatsoever was a BS thing to do. And it was.
(This para is a mistake!) And having looked at the thread you just referenced, well gee, it's STILL "BS": http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum22/HTML/000070.html
(This para is a mistake!) There's references to different production runs of the small out-of-production fixed-blades, but no claims at all of people thinking they're buying one steel when they're getting another. People might have wanted an ATS34 piece after they were all gone and had to "settle" for 1095, but that's not any sort of fraud. Happens all the time, in every industry.
Edited after: HOLD IT!!! Scratch the two paragraphs above, I see what's up: if you read it right, there's a statement by Bob towards the end that suggests a small number of ATS34 pieces got Black-Ted and were therefore nearly impossible to tell from 1095 production and went out as 1095. The language isn't *totally* clear. Well first thing, the edgeholding of ATS34 is so close to 1095 and the rust resistance at the edge would be better with ATS34, so even if this happened most customers would see it as a "mistake in their favor". I know I would...it would certainly be a more expensive piece for REKAT to produce and if I'm reading it right, it happened right at the end of production when they were blowing out the last blanks. Second, it's not totally clear that this happened at all.
Bob, wanna clarify? Like I say, it's no big deal if it happened, in my opinion...
Jim
[This message has been edited by Jim March (edited 06-26-2000).]
How can REKAT be expected to explain or rebutt a claim of "I heard on a post..."?
Think about it. Then read my words above: I did NOT call you a liar, I said that making such a statement without any backing whatsoever was a BS thing to do. And it was.
(This para is a mistake!) And having looked at the thread you just referenced, well gee, it's STILL "BS": http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum22/HTML/000070.html
(This para is a mistake!) There's references to different production runs of the small out-of-production fixed-blades, but no claims at all of people thinking they're buying one steel when they're getting another. People might have wanted an ATS34 piece after they were all gone and had to "settle" for 1095, but that's not any sort of fraud. Happens all the time, in every industry.
Edited after: HOLD IT!!! Scratch the two paragraphs above, I see what's up: if you read it right, there's a statement by Bob towards the end that suggests a small number of ATS34 pieces got Black-Ted and were therefore nearly impossible to tell from 1095 production and went out as 1095. The language isn't *totally* clear. Well first thing, the edgeholding of ATS34 is so close to 1095 and the rust resistance at the edge would be better with ATS34, so even if this happened most customers would see it as a "mistake in their favor". I know I would...it would certainly be a more expensive piece for REKAT to produce and if I'm reading it right, it happened right at the end of production when they were blowing out the last blanks. Second, it's not totally clear that this happened at all.
Bob, wanna clarify? Like I say, it's no big deal if it happened, in my opinion...
Jim
[This message has been edited by Jim March (edited 06-26-2000).]
Jim March
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Is my memory correct in thinking the ATS34 neck knives sold for higher list prices than 1095 variants? And that's why the ATS34 line "bombed"?
If so, it explains why REKAT wouldn't consider mislabeled ATS34 pieces a "ripoff" to the customer...
Jim
If so, it explains why REKAT wouldn't consider mislabeled ATS34 pieces a "ripoff" to the customer...
Jim
Hmmm... Judging from the way it reads it could have been a mistake and not a intended mislabeling or the like.
Bob - I just discovered you answered an unasked question - I meant ATS-34 as 1095 not the opposite...
Jim - I have never liked a stainless knife but I am not sure if I have tried an ATS-34.
I have ordered a hobbit warrior, a fang and a utility (yes after I started this thread) in 1095 simply because I am uneducated enough to think I will prefer it and not because of the price.
Bob - I just discovered you answered an unasked question - I meant ATS-34 as 1095 not the opposite...
Jim - I have never liked a stainless knife but I am not sure if I have tried an ATS-34.
I have ordered a hobbit warrior, a fang and a utility (yes after I started this thread) in 1095 simply because I am uneducated enough to think I will prefer it and not because of the price.
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What's that?
"the edgeholding of ATS34 is so close to 1095"
You must use a terrific ATS34 or a fairly poor 1095 if that's the case, because in my experience (admittedly limited), it's not very close at all.
"the edgeholding of ATS34 is so close to 1095"
You must use a terrific ATS34 or a fairly poor 1095 if that's the case, because in my experience (admittedly limited), it's not very close at all.
Jim March
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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Hmmmm. Probably a good point (re: edgeholding comparisons).
I'm biased because I mostly buy "fighters". Since they usually spend time in the sheath under outdoor carry conditions, I care more about "micro-rusting on the edge" than in hard-use edge WEAR.
So my results with a good stainless like ATS34 are excellent. Others with a bias more toward utility will see this way different and that's fine...but, we ARE talking REKATs here and by and large, their emphasis is on "combat monsters"
.
The neck knives were an exception though...I can see the extra edgeholding of 1095 being a good thing. In a Hobbit Warrior? Jeez, pull it for regular utility use and you'll freak everybody out in a 500 yard radius
. That's where 1095 strikes me as downright silly
.
Jim
I'm biased because I mostly buy "fighters". Since they usually spend time in the sheath under outdoor carry conditions, I care more about "micro-rusting on the edge" than in hard-use edge WEAR.
So my results with a good stainless like ATS34 are excellent. Others with a bias more toward utility will see this way different and that's fine...but, we ARE talking REKATs here and by and large, their emphasis is on "combat monsters"
The neck knives were an exception though...I can see the extra edgeholding of 1095 being a good thing. In a Hobbit Warrior? Jeez, pull it for regular utility use and you'll freak everybody out in a 500 yard radius
Jim
"The neck knives were an exception though...I can see the extra edgeholding of 1095 being a good thing. In a Hobbit Warrior? Jeez, pull it for regular utility use and you'll freak everybody out in a 500 yard radius ."
Looking forward to it...
How should I preserve the knife from corroding? When I was on a fishing boat I used to soak it in food oil. Is there anything better and less greasy?
FNG, Sigurd
How should I preserve the knife from corroding? When I was on a fishing boat I used to soak it in food oil. Is there anything better and less greasy?
FNG, Sigurd
Bob Taylor
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Boy is my face red. Youre right I read the post as 1095 for ATS-34, which is the opposite. Thats what I get for reading the post at 0600 without my standard minimum 4 cups of coffee.
I think the header of REKAT Fraud was also part of the reason for the negative response. Sorry about that. I do think you could have made it a bit more tasteful like Neck knife question? Or something in that nature. Also your question was a bit ambiguous you explained it better latter on.
Yes we did replace about 50 ATS fangs for the 1095. We were back ordered on the 1095 and to appease our dealers and distributors we shipped them ATS-34 without telling them. Was that dishonest or fraud, I dont think so if it was 1095 for ATS-34 then yes that would have been dishonest. Giving more than expected is not wrong IMHO.
So now for the $60,000 question how do you tell? Most the neck knives were made prior to the laser so they had the eye logo stamped into them. With the point facing to the left if you can see the eye it is 1095 if the logo is on the opposite side it is ATS-34.
Hope that clears the air.
Bob Taylor
I think the header of REKAT Fraud was also part of the reason for the negative response. Sorry about that. I do think you could have made it a bit more tasteful like Neck knife question? Or something in that nature. Also your question was a bit ambiguous you explained it better latter on.
Yes we did replace about 50 ATS fangs for the 1095. We were back ordered on the 1095 and to appease our dealers and distributors we shipped them ATS-34 without telling them. Was that dishonest or fraud, I dont think so if it was 1095 for ATS-34 then yes that would have been dishonest. Giving more than expected is not wrong IMHO.
So now for the $60,000 question how do you tell? Most the neck knives were made prior to the laser so they had the eye logo stamped into them. With the point facing to the left if you can see the eye it is 1095 if the logo is on the opposite side it is ATS-34.
Hope that clears the air.
Bob Taylor
Thanks!!
Ive got to tell ya, I still think its a fraud.
Think of the shopowners' credibility and the fact that many people actually prefer 1095.
I hope I get one with the eye on it!! If I get an ATS one, I'll test it against the 1095 ones. I've signed up for a talonite, too.
Ive got to tell ya, I still think its a fraud.
Think of the shopowners' credibility and the fact that many people actually prefer 1095.
I hope I get one with the eye on it!! If I get an ATS one, I'll test it against the 1095 ones. I've signed up for a talonite, too.
P.S: I gotta say, in all fairness, If anyone was unsatisfied with the exchange, which after all (words) is the most important, you probably would have heard about it. So i guess no harm either intended or done. If it was the opposite way it would have been hmm what can I say ... fraud. (ill stop using that word now, dont woory)
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1095 edge holding better than ATS-34? I don't know about that.
When I first got into high-end knives, one of the first ones I got was a Benchmade ATS-34 AFCK. After I got a couple of ATS-34 custom made knives, I got curious to see how my $100 AFCK would hold up to a $400 custom in terms of edge holding, so I did a little comparing. The ATS-34 AFCK turned out to be one of the best edge holding knives I have ever owned, and that is compared to some very expensive low-alloy tool steel knives. ATS-34 contains a lot of Chromium that forms very hard carbides under the right conditions, much harder than the iron carbides in 1095, so in my mind, I am not so sure that 1095 would perform better, though it would all depend on heat treatment.
If you think switching steels is fraud, I guess you better stay away from Cold Steel's Carbon V. They intentionally keep Carbon V's exact nature unspecified to allow them to use several different steels from several different sources without having to worry about stocking and stamping issues.
When I first got into high-end knives, one of the first ones I got was a Benchmade ATS-34 AFCK. After I got a couple of ATS-34 custom made knives, I got curious to see how my $100 AFCK would hold up to a $400 custom in terms of edge holding, so I did a little comparing. The ATS-34 AFCK turned out to be one of the best edge holding knives I have ever owned, and that is compared to some very expensive low-alloy tool steel knives. ATS-34 contains a lot of Chromium that forms very hard carbides under the right conditions, much harder than the iron carbides in 1095, so in my mind, I am not so sure that 1095 would perform better, though it would all depend on heat treatment.
If you think switching steels is fraud, I guess you better stay away from Cold Steel's Carbon V. They intentionally keep Carbon V's exact nature unspecified to allow them to use several different steels from several different sources without having to worry about stocking and stamping issues.
Thats a little bad attitude, I think. Of course, the process will also be important I guess, so you will never "know what you get" even if the steel type is specified in most cases probably. But still it seems like a cheap marketing trick. Hmm how do you know they are changing material? Does this happen also within each knife model? If it doesnt you could still relate to other peoples reports and tests of a specific model.
Bob Taylor
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Sigurd
It was done once and on one model the Fang Now with the inhouse laser the ATS-34 is marked as is the D-2 and so on. ATS-34 is better than 1095 in edge holding and ductility and I am not a ATS-34 fan.
So we gave a supriour product for a lesser price shame on us. Call it fraud if you want your option. I think most would dissagree.
Steve your way off on Carbon V. I know more than I am supposed to about Carbon V. It is what Cold Steel says it is. That rumor about it being what ever Steel they want and call it Carbon V is just that a rumor.
Bob Taylor
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Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints and escaping.
It was done once and on one model the Fang Now with the inhouse laser the ATS-34 is marked as is the D-2 and so on. ATS-34 is better than 1095 in edge holding and ductility and I am not a ATS-34 fan.
So we gave a supriour product for a lesser price shame on us. Call it fraud if you want your option. I think most would dissagree.
Steve your way off on Carbon V. I know more than I am supposed to about Carbon V. It is what Cold Steel says it is. That rumor about it being what ever Steel they want and call it Carbon V is just that a rumor.
Bob Taylor
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Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints and escaping.
Cliff Stamp
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Jim, just becuase you think that the steel issue is not a big deal do you really think that it is ok to interchange them? Other people might not see it the same way in terms of what steel they would want. How would you feel if it was something that you thought made a difference?
-Cliff
-Cliff