replacements for Crucible steels?

[Nebulae]

larrin,
I have seen M4 for sale on a couple of sites, and Carpenter manufactures it but I could find little on 9v, however the reason I looked at 9v is b/c it is supposed to be tougher than 10v (less carbon), and this.

http://www.cruciblecompaction.com/docs/cpm.pdf

Which seems to indicate that 9v is tougher and more wear resistant that M4, I know that hardness does not always equate to better wear resistance, but at 8hrc pts. higher perhaps their method of testing does not include things that would roll the edge, or general abuse stuff


And I think that at least part of Crucibles Problem was the colaps of the auto industry, for which they provide specialty parts

 

[Nebulae]

the YSS tool steels site is very good thanks

 

[knarfeng]

Yes Huge, one of the highest Ever in that area. $249,000 and 71 violations to fix is not a non-issue. If a non issue it would have already sold instead of having to be auctioned. The fact a person died doesn't help either at making it a non issue. You also have no idea what it will cost to fix the violations.

No. $250K is tiny compared to the worth of the company (hundreds of millions). A fine that size will not be an issue for a company that is looking to buy Crucible. For comparison, I was at Lockheed in the '80s when the company was hit with $6 million dollars in fines for safety violations. The stock price didn't even burp.

From the descriptions in the paper (granted not the best place for details) most of the changes are procedural, not equipment. These do not require pricey fixes.

 

[Larrin]

larrin,
I have seen M4 for sale on a couple of sites, and Carpenter manufactures it but I could find little on 9v, however the reason I looked at 9v is b/c it is supposed to be tougher than 10v (less carbon), and this.

http://www.cruciblecompaction.com/docs/cpm.pdf

Which seems to indicate that 9v is tougher and more wear resistant that M4, I know that hardness does not always equate to better wear resistance, but at 8hrc pts. higher perhaps their method of testing does not include things that would roll the edge, or general abuse stuff


And I think that at least part of Crucibles Problem was the colaps of the auto industry, for which they provide specialty parts

Carpenter makes Micro-Melt® A11-LVC Tool Steel which is the same as 9V. 9V is tougher than 10V only at the sacrifice of being hardenable to knife hardnesses. Once at 57 Rc it's already down to 26 ft. lbs., 10V gets 26 ft. lbs. at 59 Rc. Crucible has never recommended 9V for knives.

 

[Sal Glesser]

Carpenter's new CTS series knife steels offers variety and quality. We have some stuff in-the-works.

But given a choice, I would prefer to see Crucible stick around as a company that makes great knife steels.

There's noting wrong with several foundries passionate about their product.

sal

 

[cotdt]

larrin,
I have seen M4 for sale on a couple of sites, and Carpenter manufactures it but I could find little on 9v, however the reason I looked at 9v is b/c it is supposed to be tougher than 10v (less carbon), and this.

http://www.cruciblecompaction.com/docs/cpm.pdf

Which seems to indicate that 9v is tougher and more wear resistant that M4, I know that hardness does not always equate to better wear resistance, but at 8hrc pts. higher perhaps their method of testing does not include things that would roll the edge, or general abuse stuff


And I think that at least part of Crucibles Problem was the colaps of the auto industry, for which they provide specialty parts

I would imagine that the edge would roll easily. You would get a dent from cutting a simple Tylenol tablet in half.

 

[The Mastiff]

Sal, The CTS series knife steels are, with the exception of CTS-XHP nothing really new. Sure, a 440C powder steel version ( CTS-40CP) would probably be a bit better, but I'm not a 440C fan, so...

CTS -204P and CTS 20CP are 20CV and S90V respectively.

CTS-XHP is a 440XH (Modified with some niobium and in powdered form). That has some potential, but I'm not a great D2 fan. It should outperform CPM D2 in some respects, and you seem to like it so far. That's a good sign.

The other CTS series steels are wrought. Basic versions of 1095, D2, etc. CTS- B75 looks like a non VIM VAR BG42.

Yep, I too hope Crucible doesn't go away. We're still missing a S30V, and an easily accessible version of CPM 154, and 3V if it does disappear. CTS-XHP and possibly 204P ( 20CV) look to be the biggest sellers if S30V goes away.

 

[cotdt]

Maybe we should all start hoarding massive amounts of S30V and CPM154 stock in case Crucible goes down the drain.

 

[Sal Glesser]

Hi Joe,

Sal, The CTS series knife steels are, with the exception of CTS-XHP nothing really new. Sure, a 440C powder steel version ( CTS-40CP) would probably be a bit better, but I'm not a 440C fan, so...

Powdered 440C is not too shabby. Could make you a fan. Surprised me. Unlike wrought 440C, it will take a very thin edge. The powdered process eliminates carbon migration.

CTS -204P and CTS 20CP are 20CV and S90V respectively.

Not necessarily new, but available.

CTS-XHP is a 440XH (Modified with some niobium and in powdered form). That has some potential, but I'm not a great D2 fan. It should outperform CPM D2 in some respects, and you seem to like it so far. That's a good sign.

CTS-XHP is a stainless D2 with very nice performance figures. Better corrosion resistance.

The other CTS series steels are wrought. Basic versions of 1095, D2, etc. CTS- B75 looks like a non VIM VAR BG42.

Their CTS-B42 is VIM VAR. In fact they'll make anthing we want VIM VAR.

Yep, I too hope Crucible doesn't go away. We're still missing a S30V, and an easily accessible version of CPM 154, and 3V if it does disappear. CTS-XHP and possibly 204P ( 20CV) look to be the biggest sellers if S30V goes away.

Crucible's CPM-S30V is indeed very special stuff and We would hate to see it go away. I'm still hopefull that somwone will want to buy the CPM facility and keep it going. I think the skill, committment and passion that Crucible and their crew (like Scott Devanna) offer the knife industry is exemplary.

sal

 

[The Mastiff]

Sal, Thanks for the response. We'll wait and see what transpires. The knife companies should see much less trouble sourcing good steels than the small custom makers.

Crucible's CPM-S30V is indeed very special stuff and We would hate to see it go away. I'm still hopefull that somwone will want to buy the CPM facility and keep it going. I think the skill, committment and passion that Crucible and their crew (like Scott Devanna) offer the knife industry is exemplary.

I agree with you on the crucible company for so many reasons. The work they have done for the knife industry is a large part of it too, but also that area has already been hit hard. Losing another large industry, and steel foundry in particular is not a good thing for not only Syracuse NY, but all of the US IMO. We've already lost enough of them.

One way or another things work out the way they are supposed to, taking the long view. Thanks! Joe

 

[Buffalohump]

Sal, to be honest, I was kinda hoping that 'someone' might be you.

Crucible's CPM-S30V is indeed very special stuff and We would hate to see it go away. I'm still hopefull that somwone will want to buy the CPM facility and keep it going. I think the skill, committment and passion that Crucible and their crew (like Scott Devanna) offer the knife industry is exemplary.

sal

 

[Buffalohump]

Well, I'm hoarding as much as my meagre budget will allow.

Maybe we should all start hoarding massive amounts of S30V and CPM154 stock in case Crucible goes down the drain.

 

[Sal Glesser]

Sal, to be honest, I was kinda hoping that 'someone' might be you.

Thanx Buffalohump, but we're petty small poatoes in that sense. I wish I could though.

sal

 

[Larrin]

3V alternative: http://latrobesteel.com/assets/documents/datasheets/DuraTech_Pyrovan_HC.pdf

 

[Neo]

Thank you Larrin

Duratech Pyrovan HC looks very promising

Are there knifemakers using it?

 

[Larrin]

Thank you Larrin

Duratech Pyrovan HC looks very promising

Are there knifemakers using it?

None that I know of. Things look much more promising with Crucible now than they did a few months ago though, so there's not as much reason to switch from 3V.

 

[Neo]

Very good news :thumbup:

 

[KarlMaldensNose]

Ok so I looked it up and Carpenter is buying some of the reaserch and Compaction assets of Crucible That is good. Carpenter also sells M4 and others so you can relax.

http://www.cartech.com

Crucibles CPM M4 is better than standard types. I haven't looked at the Carpenter types but the point is will they serve the knife industry ? One good point is that there is more powder types steel on the market which at least I appreciate !

Is the reason CPM M4 is better than other M4 because the "powder" aspect of its composition? Would this kind of upgrade in performance be similar to the improvement of CPM D2 to D2 and CPM 154 to 154CM?

 

[knarfeng]

Is the reason CPM M4 is better than other M4 because the "powder" aspect of its composition? Would this kind of upgrade in performance be similar to the improvement of CPM D2 to D2 and CPM 154 to 154CM?

yes.

http://www.crucibleservice.com/products/CPM/index.cfm

CPM steels are HIP consolidated from tiny powder particles, each having uniform composition and a uniform distribution of fine carbides. Because there is no alloy segregation in the powder particles themselves, there is no alloy segregation in the resultant compact. The uniform distribution of fine carbides also prevents grain growth, so that the resultant microstructure is fine grained. Advantages of CPM

 

[Gator97]

Actually CPM is Crucible Particle Metallurgy, which is different from PM, Powder Metallurgy.

While compiling knife steel charts I've learned that a lot of CPM steels have counterparts from other companies made by either PM or some other, similar proprietary technology.

Carpenter for example uses MicroMelt technology. Bohler-Uddeholm is using PM and Spray Form, ESR tecs, and several other companies use PM.

E.g. well known CPM 10V turned out AISI A11, which is also made by Latrobe as Duratech A11 (PM), PM A11 by Diehl (PM), A11 Mod by PSM Industries (PM) and I am sure I'll dig up more versions of it as I research more...

Same story with M4 and most of the tools steels, well I am sure same story with most of the steels in general, just my main interest for knife steel charts are tool and alloy steels more or less suitable for knives.