Reporting myself

[Strobengh]

I guess I screwed up on this last sale.

I sold a SOG Pentagon II that had been sitting in my drawer for years to chugokujin.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=493900
On his end, Chugokujin was great. He sent me a MO immediately, and was great to deal with.

On my end, I didn't really look over the SOG that closely.
The only thing I put in the description was "never used."

By "never used" I meant that I had never carried it or used it regularly. I did not mean that the knife had never been sharpened, or never cut anything in its life. I have lots of knifes that have opened boxes, or done odd jobs around the house that I consider "never used." I was focusing on the overall usage the knife has received, not the amount of materials it has cut.

I should have explained my definition of never used, because chugokujin does not share the same definition of never used.

Anyway, chugokujin sent me an email after he received the knife with some concerns about the blade. Apparently there are some marks on the blade, and the edge is rolled.

Looking at my pictures, I can see the marks he is talking about, but I didn't notice them when I sent him the blade. They look like the bead blasted finish has been smoothed.

I'm not sure what happened to the edge; it's possible that I sharpened it when I first got it (8+ years ago) and screwed up, but I just don't remember, and I didn't check the edge before I sent it . . . that's my bad.

I never stated that the blade was unsharpened or in mint condition, as I have in other threads, but I should have gone over it with a fine-toothed comb and discovered/disclosed any/all problems, instead of relying on my memory of usage, and cursory/brief inspection of the knife to discover problems.

I took the pictures of the knife when we were moving and inventorying our stuff, and I didn't recall the marks on the blade.

The knife is in great shape, has not been abused or used regularly, but I should have read Spark's thread more closely about carefully looking over knives and disclosing any problems, no matter how insignificant they may be.

I'm still waiting to hear back from chugokujin about what he wants me to do, but thought I'd report myself in the meanwhile.

I never tried to mislead or cheat anyone, but chugokujin feels that I did, so here we are.

I hope other sellers can learn from my mistake(s).

 

[sixstrings101]

very noble of you to do something like this. as you said i hope other sellers will learn something

 

[rmd]

Kudos for your forthrightness. But... Your definition of "never used" is, uh, unintuitive.

 

[Strobengh]

Kudos for your forthrightness. But... Your definition of "never used" is, uh, unintuitive.

I'm realizing this . . .

I can't remember cutting anything with it, but I apparently did.
All I knew for sure was that I had never carried it, thus "never used."

But I should have looked closer . . .

 

[sixstrings101]

never used could be carried but not used to cut anything. more so it would just be best in the future to explain flaws on knives exactly to prevent confusion

 

[DaveH]

Good for you to post.

I generally ask sellers to look again at their knives and describe any flaws in knives I'm interested in.

I have occasionally received the wrong knives or knives that were not as described due to faulty "seller's memory".

 

[glockman99]

By "never used" I meant that I had never carried it or used it regularly. I did not mean that the knife had never been sharpened, or never cut anything in its life. I have lots of knifes that have opened boxes, or done odd jobs around the house that I consider "never used."

I'm alittle confused here. How can you think that a knife that HAS been USED to cut things with has never been used? Maybe it wasn't beat-up, but if had cut ANYTHING, even just once, it was "used".

 

[Cougar Allen]

By "never used" I meant that I had never carried it or used it regularly. I did not mean that the knife had never been sharpened, or never cut anything in its life. I have lots of knifes that have opened boxes, or done odd jobs around the house that I consider "never used." I was focusing on the overall usage the knife has received, not the amount of materials it has cut.

I should have explained my definition of never used, because chugokujin does not share the same definition of never used.

Um ... yes, and you should explain your personal definitions of every other word you use in advertising a knife for sale, too. If your personal definitions for simple common words like "never" and "used" are that far from the definitions used by the rest of the English-speaking world, I would hate to be left to guess what your personal definitions of other words might be. Clean? No rust? Not made in China? Comes with a sheath? Solid lockup?

 

[Strobengh]

To the mods:

Thank you for not hitting me while I was down.


I heard back from chugokujin:
He doesn't want a refund; just wants to voice his complaint and has threatened to report me on GB&U.

I tried again to tell him that I had honestly not noticed the marks on the blade before listing it, or before sending it to him.
He thinks I am lying to him, and threatened to report me to GB&U.

I don't like being called a liar, or being threatened, but I can't really argue with him if he doesn't want to believe my explanation.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

If you bought the knife new, it arrived, you opened the box, looked at it, and put it back, it's NIB, New In Box.

If you took it out, put it on your desk for a few days and played with it, then put it back in the box, it's LNIB, Like New In Box.

If you took it out, put it in your pocket and walked around with it for a while, it's a user. You might be able to specify it's still got the factory edge, but it's still a user.

 

[Lenny_Goofoff]

To the mods:

TI heard back from chugokujin:
He doesn't want a refund; just wants to voice his complaint and has threatened to report me on GB&U.

I think offering him full or partial refund (along with you apologies) was fair enough. If he still not happy then I cant see what his intentions are.

 

[Strobengh]

It dawned on me that the original point may have been lost throughout all of this:

When I listed/sent the knife, I honestly didn't notice the marks on it.
If I did I would have mentioned them.

I have owned the knife for around 8 years, and I must have used it when I first got it because I don't remember using the knife: which is why I didn't look over it that closely when I sent it.

Again, lesson learned: don't trust your memory.

 

[chugokujin]

Greetings,

It is sad that I actually have to post here. I've been reading and learning here since inception despite the fact I don't post often.

I was trying to abide by the advice of moderators here about voicing initial complaints to the seller, as I think it should be. I've never roasted anyone on this forum and am quite displeased that I am here now. Especially since Stro has such good reviews here.

After receiving the knife yesterday, I promptly logged on to find the Purchase thread to make sure that I wasn't mistaken, but lo and behold it said "Never used." I then emailed Stro and asked why it was listed as
"never used" when the bead blasting was marred with veritical scratch lines and a dull edge. The only sharp portion of which is the serrated section.
I asked if it was sharpened on a Sharpmaker (which I have) because the lines looked reminiscent of that; with lines above two serration points as well. One serration is chewed up and there is also a horizontal lengthwise scratch line. Mind you, I own several bead blasted knives (Sog included) and I am not referring to the way bead blasting stains or ages like crap.

The straight edge is dull with what appears to be a secondary bevel on the factory edge and is rolled. Both sides of the tip has what appears to be old adhesive. Many of us who use our knives use the tip to open taped cartons, so I'll say its a safe call. Or tree sap from stabbing ( its a tac knife afterall right?)
I informed him that most people would probably interpret "never used" as "like new or new." because IT WAS NEVER USED. Strobengh quickly replies stating that his definition of being "never used" meant not being used regularly and says he found it in a drawer quickly opened it, though not inspecting the edge and packaged it. Further, he said he doesn't remember everything he did with it, but remembers he never carried it??

Okay, this was a little strange as I thought what Glockman99 thought. These marks are quite apparent even without closeup inspection. In his second email to me, he states he looked at the photo again, and saw what I saw.
Huh? How did you look notice it from a photo, but not notice it in hand, especially since you have to lock your attention to take a photo. You had it open long enough to notice. He also suggested it was different semantics to which I stated it could not be. Going by what he stated, "never used" means "lightly used?" He's done way more transactions than I, and could've said that instead. Or "sharpened but unused", or give a percentage 80%(yes still subjective), but most accept that. The stated condition is more than semantics as this affects the pricing point of any item.

I also added:

If I don't drive a car regularly, but occasionally, can I sell it to you as "never used?" Obviously not ( Hence it would be a used car).

If I "never" drink before driving, does that mean I do lightly before driving?

I questioned his definition of the word "never."

There is no way to say this w/o sounding insulting, but, either his reasoning is flawed or he needs to look in a dictionary.

He also said he doesn't consider "sharpening" a knife as used. I told him in email that no BF member would say that without futher indication and claim/ list it as " Never used." (Again "sharpened but not used" would probably be appropriate).

I did say it was misleading and falsly advertised. This is not a case you see with custom knives, where a brush mark is nothing to one person, but, a "HOLY S..T" to someone else. If it was "never used" it should "never" have any adhesive, etc. to it right? Later he states he may have opened some parcel??

Stro, I did not threaten you. I told you I don't have a digital camera, but, could borrow one and take a poll to see how "unused" this knife is since we cannot agree. You know you cannot see the scratch marks from your picture. Stupid me, I usually ask for closeups and I cannot see why someone wouldn't do it if the camera is already in hand. If you take it as a threat, I apologize. I did not ask for a refund and simply wanted to voice a complaint, as its my right as a buyer. I've stated the lockup and handles are fine and gave credit for that and am not arguing over the price. I personally don't care how many good reviews you have. I've none posted on GB&U, but will give a list of reputable people I've dealt with here, but I would rather not involve them.

As a retired LEO in NYC, I argued a lot for a living. I just don't need this headache, but certain things didn't add up and I had to say something.
I'm not too computer saavy, but, I could shoot all moderators the emails.
I would even forward you the knife itself. Mr. Benjamin, I think frequents NYC from NJ. I would show it to you if interested.

I think everyone knows that there have been "caveat emptor" threads which refunds aren't always demanded. People do need to know and not always take it for granted where good feedback is concerned.

BTW, one last thing. Stro, I asked that you email me with a delivery confirm # for safety sake. I told you it was a .65 cent purchase when I sent the MO. You didn't and told me the Post Office never gave you a number? With all your transactions, you really didn't know it had to be purchased? I find it hard to believe.

 

[chugokujin]

I apologize to all if my post sounds a little heated. Not the way I wanna come across. Apologies across the board.

 

[Strobengh]

Ya know, I was going to go through your email point by point and respond to it; then I decided that I'd post all of the emails, but I then decided against it.

As chugokujin said, there is no reason to sour others reputations.

I was the one who screwed up by not closely inspecting the knife.
I was asked what my definition of "never used" was, and I responded.
My definition seems inadequate for those here, and I will remember that next time, but in my defense: if you purchase a car from a dealer who says that the car has never been used, would you be surprised to learn that the car has been taken on test drives, or was driven after it was manufacutred?
Furthermore, if the dealer sells you said car which you discover has a mark on it that the dealer should have discovered, but did not, and the dealer offers you a full refund on the car, but you refuse, what else can be done?

The bottom line: I missed the mark, I screwed up.
When chugokujin called it to my attention, I offered to make it right by sharpening it or by giving him his money back.

Both options were rejected, so I posted a thread against myself in GB&U stating that I screwed up, and that chugokujin, for his part, did absolutely nothing wrong.

I am simply at a loss as to what else I can do to make things right.

As for the shipping:
I offered to send it free of charge via first class mail, as I do with all of the knives I sell.
You asked that I send it priority mail. I checked my post and saw that I forgot to include information about my shipping requirements, and decided to throw in priority shipping for free.

This was the first buyer who has not payed via paypal: usually, when you buy postage through paypal you automatically generate a tracking number.

I went to the PO and sent the package out. I looked on my receipt and saw that it wasn't there.

I don't ship a lot of items (I'm only doing this now because I need money to cover bills as our old house has not yet sold) so I again apologize for not knowing that tracking numbers don't automatically come when you send something via priority mail.
I should have checked into it more, or asked for a tracking number instead of assuming I would get one with my receipt as is the case with paypal.

I made a lot of mistakes on this one, and I have tried to explain this, and answer questions that were posed to me.

My explanations have not been accepted, and I have been called a liar, and have been threatened with numerous mentions of GB&U, and the damage it can do to my reputation

I've offered to sharpen it, I've offered a refund, I've admitted that I screwed up, I have accepted full blame, and I've offered apologies.
I don't know what more can be done.

I can post all emails if the mods like.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

I think the subject has been thoroughly explained from both points of view, which don't differ in their essentials, and posting emails is a last resort, not really cool, and few people read through all that anyway. All it would "prove" is what's already on record.

At this point, damage control would consist of "less is more".

 

[chugokujin]

Stro,

Excuse me, which email offered the refund per se? Please post that one. I even stated I was not looking for one. You insist its a threat. I don't know what to say. I say it here again, it was not meant as one and apologized here, and that "poll" idea is in the email. I would have to borrow a camera and learn how to post them. Its only to let other judge. If they judged in your favor, then your rep wouldn't be tarnished and I would look stupid. How is this a threat? This is much further than I wanted to take it. I seriously wouldn't even wanna hump 14 miles to get my buds camera unless necessary. I just wanted to basically know how this was unused considering every "stated explanaton" pointed to usage or sharpening. I never even wanted to take it here, but you did. BTW, I sharpen as well.

As for the paypal issuing a delivery number, I didn't know that. Since its my ignorance, I will apologize for that one. I don't have paypal acct and that wasn't even a breath of our conversation.

Factory testing is standard on cars, firearms and knives and doesn't preclude them from being sold new. People usually want this. Its only used after the end user purchases and uses it. BTW, do you buy the floor test model of a vehicle as new? Most floor models in my area are sold with mileage as "slightly used."

This is a waste of time. I keep the knife as I do like it. What I said still stands. Some things intially didn't make sense and they didn't. The sudden remembrance of usage made it a lil odd too, you must admit. You offered to sharpen it and I dont take that from you. But, you are trying to make it seem like you are a victim here when I am not?? I was letting you know I was displeased with your description and condition of knife. What is wrong with that? You worry about tarnishing your rep, yet you started this thread? This is a serious waste of webspace. Moderators please jump in anytime. Thanks.

 

[chugokujin]

Oh, sorry, posted after the mod. Thank you, Mr. Benyamin. Stro, I apologize for this misunderstanding man, good luck on moving your house. This went too far.

 

[glockman99]

I'm going to close this thread, as it looks like it has gone beyond what it needed to. If either of the two parties involved need it to be re-opened, please email me and I'll do so.

 

[Strobengh]

I agree it went too far. I just wanted to clear the air, admit I made a mistake, and hopefully let others learn.

I will be more clear in my descriptions, and my responses to complaints/queries.

But what I said originally still stands, Chugokujin was/is good to deal with: very fast payment.