Request For More Clarity in Rules

P.Brewster

P.Brewster

Joined
Jul 25, 2007
Messages
1,380
I was recently issued an infraction for "Selling without a Paying Membership" as a result of:
1. My membership (basic)
2. The presence of my homepage address in my signature, and
3. The presence of my homepage address in my profile.

The set of rules to which I was directed was http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/announcement.php?f=699&a=98 "Rules For the Exchange Forums."

I'd like to kindly make the following requests:
1. These rules be retitled, reworded and relocated to make it abundantly clear that they apply to ALL of Bladeforums
2. These rules, and the membership descriptions, be reworded to make it abundantly clear what is allowed/disallowed for each membership type
3. The title of infraction "Selling without a Paying Membership" be reworded, since, in my case, I DID have a paying membership (basic is $10) and I did not sell anything on Bladeforums.

As a paying Bladeforums customer (assuming I don't get banned!), I would like to know exactly what I can and cannot do with each membership level. So far, the explanation I received has been (to paraphrase) "because we say so." These rules are quite simple and there is no reason whatsoever for there to be room for interpretation. If you need someone to rewrite the rules or point out the current ambiguities, I would be happy to donate my time for the cause.

Thank you for the consideration; I do value my membership and apologize for being disagreeable.
 
While I won't argue that more clarity is always better, is it not clear here what the difference is between a "basic" membership and a "knifemaker/craftsman/service provider"?:

SECTION 1- Membership levels
BladeForums.com is supported by members who have paid subscriptions, as such, only certain membership levels may advertise items for sale on this site.

MANUFACTURERS - Manufacturers & their designated moderators may offer items for sale in their dedicated Hosted Manufacturer Forum. Manufacturers are encouraged to contact us regarding pricing for a Hosted Manufacturer forum.
DEALER / MATERIALS PROVIDER - A dealer is defined as anyone who purchases at wholesale pricing, or purchases items with the intent to resell (flipping). Other terms for dealers include purveyor, broker, reseller, etc.
Please see the additional rules for Dealers below. Materials providers offer raw materials such as steel, handle materials, or other items as typical stock.
KNIFEMAKER / CRAFTSMAN / SERVICE PROVIDER (hearafter referred to as "Knifemaker") - Knifemaker's are allowed to sell items that they have personally created or modified in the KnifeMaker For Sale forums, or their own Hosted KnifeMaker Forum. If you are a knifemaker and would like your own Hosted KnifeMaker Forum, please contact us.
PLATINUM or GOLD MEMBERS - Platinum or Gold members are allowed to post in any of the Individual For Sale or Trade forums.
BASIC MEMBERS - Basic members are not allowed to post items for sale. You may post items for Trade in the Wanted To Trade Forums, or post requests for items to purchase in the Wanted To Buy Forums.
REGISTERED USERS - If you have not purchased a paid subscription, you are by default a Registered User. As such, you are not allowed to sell items on the forums. You may post items for Trade in the Wanted To Trade Forums, or post requests for items to purchase in the Wanted To Buy Forums.

Make sure your correct usergroup is displayed before posting!!! - If you are a Gold, Platinum, or Knifemaker member, you need to click on the User CP and select Group Memberships. Make sure that you have selected the appropriate membership group to display on your profile. If you have "Registered User" displayed and you make a For Sale post, you will receive a "Failure to follow the rules" infraction.

SECTION 6 - Miscellaneous

If any rules seem contradictory, the more stringent rules apply.
WHEN IN DOUBT, ask the moderation staff.
These forums operate on honesty and integrity. As such, we have a dim view of people who act dishonestly. Your actions in the community have consequences. Even if they happen elsewhere.

"Basic" membership does not entitle you to use this site for selling or advertising your knives, products or services for sale.

A "Knifemaker/Craftsman/Service Provider" membership allows you to both advertise and sell on this site.

You were given an explanation by one moderator. When you chose to disregard him I got involved and provided further explanation (and infractions due to your still circumventing the rules).

If Spark feels the need to reply here he will and I agree that the rules (as written) could be presented more clearly. That said, none of the answers provided you by myself or the other moderator were "just because we said so". You know it, we know it.
 
Well I think he was talking about his site in his sig which isn't really covered under the rules. I had got a infraction for posting a pic which was hosted on my site and not on photobucket. It wasn't a link or anything just a photo. I didn't mean anything buy it and definetly wasn't selling anything. So i can see his point.
 
For the sake of clarity, until Spark further addresses this issue, I've added a couple of lines to Section I to make the rules more easily comprehensible.

William, I understand your point but the fact remains the issues were explained via PM and even if Spark's documentation is not the "Constitution", the "spirit" of the rules and guidelines have been understood pretty well by 99% of our membership imho.

That said, it's never going to be perfect, it's always going to be a work in progress and the last thing we need is to be embroiled in courtroom-like lawyering over our attempts to keep the site manageable for all.

When folks ask for clarification it is provided. If they don't like what they hear, there's only so much we can do about that.
 
More clarity is always better.

But ... I looked at the rules again, and honestly I find them pretty comprehensible.
 
WHEN IN DOUBT, ask the moderation staff.
Click to expand...

This is the rule that I ALWAYS follow...sometimes to the point of being a PITA...better to ask than assume in my book.
 
1SHOT1KILL said:
This is the rule that I ALWAYS follow...sometimes to the point of being a PITA...better to ask than assume in my book.
Click to expand...

But that's the problem here: we perform based on the way the rules are written that we perceive as correct since that's the purpose of the rules being written in the first place. It cannot hurt a bit to visually improve the visual receptions of how the rules are worded and presented. In fact, such things can help contribute to even lesser assumptions than is the norm these days.

I wouldn't be surprised if Blue deletes this contribution post of mine just like he did for my 3 others.

Edit to add reply by moderator:

Surprise! They weren't deleted. They were moved to the moderator's section since they were off-topic for the current discussion (as were the replies they necessitated from me).
You are free and welcome to express your thoughts that the rules could use some modification and clarification...however, we would like the current matter under discussion to remain intact.

Blues
 
Last edited by a moderator:
This whole thread is a joke, right? You guys are pulling my leg, yes?
 
No, it's all too real. Now you understand why I bitch about having to report posts 10 times a day.
 
Spark said:
This whole thread is a joke, right? You guys are pulling my leg, yes?
Click to expand...

1SHOT1KILL said:
If it was easy...anyone could do it...right?? :p
Click to expand...

And don't forget, Spark, famous last words:

79b5771b-b86c-4734-a0ac-53d64a800e03.jpg


;)
 
Edit to add reply by moderator:

Surprise! They weren't deleted. They were moved to the moderator's section since they were off-topic for the current discussion (as were the replies they necessitated from me).
You are free and welcome to express your thoughts that the rules could use some modification and clarification...however, we would like the current matter under discussion to remain intact.

Blues
Click to expand...

Yet look at how very derailed this thread ended up being after you posted that with none of those off the topic posts being deleted or "moved" out of this thread. No one except me and Pat bothered to be structured and contributing to the thread's original intentions.

Hypocritical Moderator.
 
What in the heck are you talking about? I don't see anything getting "derailed" here — just some old friends having a few laughs. You ought to try it sometime.
 
Blues said:
is it not clear here what the difference is between a "basic" membership and a "knifemaker/craftsman/service provider"?:
Click to expand...
What is not made explicit in these rules is that a signature or profile containing a website (or on my second attempt, a description of my items) constitutes a "post for sale." When I said the rules were "because you said so," I was referring to the interpretation. My honest understanding of the rules was that I could not offer any items for sale on Bladeforums. To me, that seemed to be the unambiguous meaning of the posted rules. Moving forward, I would suggest a simple chart to clarify the rules, such as (example only):
Rules.jpg


Blues said:
You were given an explanation by one moderator. When you chose to disregard him I got involved and provided further explanation (and infractions due to your still circumventing the rules).
Click to expand...

Please understand that I did not "disregard" the first moderator. I simply and respectfully offered my viewpoint of the situation and left the door open for further discussion. At that point, it seemed quite possible that the first mod was incorrectly interpreting the rules. Also, I was under the impression (based on the written rules) that I would receive a warning before an infraction. Apparently the PM sent by the first Mod was my warning. I expected something more explicit. I concluded my initial response with the following:

"It is my full intention to use Bladeforums in accordance with the rules. I apologize for being disagreeable, but in my sight it is abundantly clear that I am conforming to the current set of rules as I've outlined above. Just as Bladeforums must insist that it's users obey the rules, so I must insist that Bladeforums' rules be applied literally and without murky interpretation. If the "Exchange Forum Rules" indeed apply to all of Bladeforums, I suggest that the Terms of Service, FAQs, or general rules be updated to make this clear.

I value my Bladeforums membership and I hope for an amicable resolution. If you would like to email me directly, my email is xxx@gmail.com.

Thank you, Patrick"



Again, I apologize for being disagreeable and for causing trouble that seems petty or argumentative. As a paying customer, I simply expect to be treated as a paying customer.
 
OldeWolf said:
Yet look at how very derailed this thread ended up being after you posted that with none of those off the topic posts being deleted or "moved" out of this thread. No one except me and Pat bothered to be structured and contributing to the thread's original intentions.

Hypocritical Moderator.
Click to expand...

Au contraire. Once Spark (the site owner) came in and saw what the brouhaha was about...(and didn't think it merited further comment, apparently), that's when the inmates took over the asylum.

Sorry if you can't tell the difference. Up until then I tried to keep the discussion in order so the OP could get a fair opportunity of having his concerns addressed.

And frankly, your posts here, despite your very high (and in my view unwarranted) opinion of yourself, added nothing to the discussion and still don't. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
 
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