Request For Mr. Glesser - SS Scales!

[pope_face]

Coles Notes Version (post #4 in this thread)


Alright, so I know I'm new to the forum, and I'm still relatively new to knives. I also don't really have any Spyderco knives yet, only a Byrd Meadowlark Rescue 2, and I've only had that for about a week. However, I think the knife is (for the most part) excellent, and I've got plans on picking up a few more knives in the near future, particularly a couple Salt models.

Now, having said that: I know I'm still new, but I've been thinking a lot about my wants/needs for a knife, and how I could get that from Spyderco. I originally wanted a SS handled Spyderco, until I realized they're pinned together. I'm sure there's a reason for that, but I don't really know what it is, considering the FRN and G-10 models are screwed together. Personally, I really like the screws... I know I shouldn't be taking apart the knives, but sometimes it's useful in order to clean them out or tweak something.

I had a whole long thing in here before, explaining why I want a Spyderco with SS scales and screws, but I think the post was too long, so I've moved that section to the following post...

Now, if I remember correctly, Spyderco initially debuts knives with SS handles in order to gauge interest and keep the handle material from affecting perceived functionality. I think that's a great idea, and I personally like SS knives. However, these knives use pinned handles and no liners. If you compare that to the other typical production versions of the knife, you've got three very different styles of handle: SS with pins and no liners; FRN with skeletonized liners and screws; and G-10 with full liners and screws. Now I understand that the FRN handles and skeletonized liners are done to conserve weight, and that the G-10 requires full liners to reduce machining costs, and I'm not arguing with either of those. However, having the SS handles using pins and no liners creates the need for a third set of machinery/tooling. If Spyderco went to full liners and SS scales with screws instead of linerless, pinned handles, they could potentially use the same liners as the G-10 models. This would only leave the machining of the SS scales, which could possibly be done similarly to the G-10 scales... I don't know what the exact process it, but I assume G-10 comes in sheets and needs to be cut and finished to the proper shape.

So, in the end, this would not affect the current G-10 or FRN models, but would allow people who want a SS knife to find the best tool for the job without having to get something custom made. I've already seen a number of threads (here and elsewhere) asking about how to disassemble the SS Spydercos. It would also be a step towards standardizing Spyderco products by using most of the same handle components across two styles of the same knife. It may increase the initial cost somewhat, as now there are two components to be machined for the SS handles, rather than one. However, this could overall reduce the cost of SS and G-10 knives slightly, as the liners and backspacers can be produced in larger quantities.

Thoughts, comments, concerns?

 

[pope_face]

My reasoning for SS scales over the pinned handles:

I know the FRN and G10 models are popular due to their light weight. Why would I want a SS handled knife, you ask? It's the same reason that another thread came up recently: Chemicals. I'm sure the polymer handles will handle most chemicals (cleaners, solvents, fuels, etc) without issue, but having a SS handled knife would alleviate any concerns I had with using my knives for those purposes. As I mentioned in another thread, I do a lot of work with automobiles and heavy machinery... I do have some tools with polymer parts (screwdrivers and such), and they haven't failed me yet, but cleaning them is a real PITA. Oils and such seem to almost absorb into the handles, and I often get dirt/grease mixtures into all the little crevices.

Now, I love my Rescue, and I don't mind the FRN handle, but the polymer back spacer and recessed liners aren't my thing. I prefer the full size liners and steel backspacer on the G-10 models, which is why my next knife will be a PE Meadowlark 2 in G-10. Unfortunately, the Rescue 2 doesn't come in G-10, otherwise I would've gone with that.

Why would I get a G-10 model, after I just talked at length about SS? The truth is, I don't really care about the G-10; I care what's under it. Full-size liners and a SS backspacer. I have some tools at my disposal, and I'm comfortable doing a bit of metal working, but I lack a milling machine or anything really heavy-duty. As such, I can easily machine a section of flat bar stock (from a variety of metals) into workable scales, providing I don't have to recess the liners. I haven't actually taken one apart, but my understanding is that the G-10 scales are flat against the liners, not recessed like the FRN models. As such, I could potentially use the core of the G-10 knife, machine some SS scales for myself, and have an entirely SS knife that can be disassembled. No more worries about chemicals damaging the polymers, yet ridiculously easy to clean and tweak.

Again, you may ask why I don't just go with a SS model, and not worry about taking it apart? Well here's the caveat: Not all the models I want are available in SS. I mentioned at the very beginning that I want a couple Salt models... Those happen to be the Delicas, which (as far as I can tell) only come in FRN. I understand why they come in FRN, but I don't mind a little extra weight in exchange for increased durability (for my uses). In order for me to truly have the best knife for my wants and needs, I would have to get a Salt model in FRN, purchase the comparable model in G-10, then swap the blades and create some SS scales. This is actually my plan if I get a Salt in the near future.

So, while I'm happy to simply get a knife in G-10 and make some new scales, it does end up being a cost issue... The Byrd Meadowlark 2 in G-10 is about $10-15 (CAD) more expensive for me than the FRN or SS models. This has me spending extra money for something I'm not planning on using. I then need to source the materials for the new scales, and then fabricate the scales themselves. I would much rather pay an extra few bucks for factory SS scales. The same applies for the actual Spyderco knives, with the exception that G-10 scaled versions can cost more than $10-20 over the FRN versions.

 

[Krissig12]

Ain't nobody got time to read that......

 

[pope_face]

Ain't nobody got time to read that......

Yeah, I didn't think so...

Fine, Coles Notes:

Replace the pinned SS handles with the equivalent of a G-10 handle, but with SS (or possibly aluminium) scales. Utilize the same liners, back spacer, and screws as the G-10 models. Price in the same range, or a little higher, as the current SS options (between the FRN and G-10 models). No extra machinery/tooling/programming required (depending on whether the G-10 machinery can be adapted to deal with SS as well); may actually reduce machinery required. Results in two unique handle styles (full liners with different scales, vs skeletonized recessed liners and FRN), rather than the three different handle styles currently in use. Allows SS models to be tweaked and cleaned as easily as FRN/G-10 models.

Better?

 

[jla3156]

First off both g10 and frn will not have any problems with any chemicals and clean up fine with some soap and water. Stainless steel on the other hand is never actually completely stainless (especially the kind used for handle scales) and could develop rusting or pitting with subjection to some acids or bases. The salt series does not use liner at all for that same reason, they would rust in salt water. Also the ss handled spydercos don't use liners because the handles eliminate the need for reinforcement. Spyderco usually pins models because it is cheaper and thus lowers the msrp for customers. Pinned models really are not that hard to clean, you simply rinse them out with soap and water then dry them.

I don't believe spyderco has seen enough of an interest in the ss models to warrant adding additionally models or changing the current ones making them more expensive to manufacture.

If you are really into the heftier feeling knives and really don't want frn or g10 then check out the ti models. Titanium has proven to be a much better handle material than ss, although it is more expensive.

If you do decide to get a salt model and don't like the frn then I would say you should just make or have someone else make scales for the knife and rather than buying another knife just for the liners.

 

[10fingers]

I read the whole thing

 

[jla3156]

I would also suggest doing a simple google search of "glass reinforced nylon" or "glass reinforced nylon properties" and look at the results. Then do the same for g10. You will find that both materials do exceptionally well when subjected to chemicals of any kind that a person could subject them to without also seriously injuring themselves.

 

[pope_face]

First off both g10 and frn will not have any problems with any chemicals and clean up fine with some soap and water. Stainless steel on the other hand is never actually completely stainless (especially the kind used for handle scales) and could develop rusting or pitting with subjection to some acids or bases. The salt series does not use liner at all for that same reason, they would rust in salt water. Also the ss handled spydercos don't use liners because the handles eliminate the need for reinforcement. Spyderco usually pins models because it is cheaper and thus lowers the msrp for customers. Pinned models really are not that hard to clean, you simply rinse them out with soap and water then dry them.

I don't believe spyderco has seen enough of an interest in the ss models to warrant adding additionally models or changing the current ones making them more expensive to manufacture.

If you are really into the heftier feeling knives and really don't want frn or g10 then check out the ti models. Titanium has proven to be a much better handle material than ss, although it is more expensive.

If you do decide to get a salt model and don't like the frn then I would say you should just make or have someone else make scales for the knife and rather than buying another knife just for the liners.

I appreciate the reply... From the whole "chlorinated brake cleaner" thread, I gathered that most chemicals would be OK, but there's some stuff that could be suspect. Chlorinated brake cleaner and engine cleaner were two things mentioned, but I'm sure there's other stuff too. It's been suggested that gasoline and such should be OK, but I haven't verified it.

I didn't know that the pinned versions were cheaper to make. However, I did assume that switching to the G-10 style liners with SS scales would allow them to increase production numbers on the liners, which would hopefully decrease the cost. I don't know whether they do this stuff in-house or order it from a manufacturer... If it's the latter, then ordering 10,000 units of steel liners (for the G-10) and 10,000 units of SS handles would probably cost more overall than ordering 20,000 units of steel liners. If they do it in-house, then it might reduce costs by eliminating one (or more) machines currently used to assemble the SS handles. In addition, it can save time by allowing them to design a single liner that will work with two styles of handle (G-10 and SS), rather than having to design each handle individually. So, while the cost of the SS-handled versions may increase (due to the added complexity of having to design 2 parts, rather than one), I'm hoping that the overall cost may decrease slightly for both the G-10 and SS versions. Even if the SS version stays at a similar price point, or even 10% higher, we're probably talking a difference of $5-30 higher (depending on model) for a SS knife that can be disassembled.

As for the liners not being needed in the SS models: I realize that the SS handles are rigid enough, but the reason I suggested SS liners with SS scales is to reduce problems, not cause more... I was proposing an adaptation to an existing product. Since Spyderco already produces knives with full SS liners (the G-10 models), it would be easier to just add the option of using SS scales, rather than redesigning an entire handle just to use screws.

As for Ti: I like titanium, but can't really justify the cost for a utility knife. Plus, there seems to be even fewer Ti Spydercos than G-10 models.

I would also suggest doing a simple google search of "glass reinforced nylon" or "glass reinforced nylon properties" and look at the results. Then do the same for g10. You will find that both materials do exceptionally well when subjected to chemicals of any kind that a person could subject them to without also seriously injuring themselves.

Yeah, I tried that, but didn't find much. Maybe I wasn't looking hard enough though.

I will likely get myself a G-10 knife and use it, and it might turn out to be perfectly fine for my needs. However, given the option, I would much sooner purchase a SS knife that was screwed together, vs a pinned version. I'm sure the pinned ones will work fine, but it'd be nice if the SS handles disassembled with screws, and I've seen the SS handle disassembly question come up a few times on the forum.

I read the whole thing

Yay! Do you have anything you want to add to it, or do you just want a cookie?

 

[XxdrpxX]

I read the first post, but it was a little wordy for me. Lol. Cliff notes were awesome thank you. Personally I do not like the ss slabs as they are to slick for my liking. The fluted titanium offers a little better grip. First spydercos I ever saw were the police models, and as a cop I couldn't wrap my head around a slick handle especially if im sweating, and covered in blood, gas, motor oil...etc. now the g10 is nice and grippy and no gloves needed. To each their own, and everyday I find a new spyderco to buy or lust after.

I read the whole thing

 

[pope_face]

I read the first post, but it was a little wordy for me. Lol. Cliff notes were awesome thank you. Personally I do not like the ss slabs as they are to slick for my liking. The fluted titanium offers a little better grip. First spydercos I ever saw were the police models, and as a cop I couldn't wrap my head around a slick handle especially if im sweating, and covered in blood, gas, motor oil...etc. now the g10 is nice and grippy and no gloves needed. To each their own, and everyday I find a new spyderco to buy or lust after.

Yeah, I tend to do that... I'm trying to cut it down, but I've usually got so much stuff in my head and I want to get it all out. I also figured I'd try to explain my reasoning in case Sal read it, rather than being like "Yo dude, you should do this, because I think that's awesome".

As for SS being slick: I've heard that comment a couple times, but I also saw a YouTube review where a guy put skateboard grip tape on his SS Byrd, so that seems like it might help.

However, if you think the fluted titanium works better, then there's really no reason that the SS scales can't be offered with fluting (although it may cost a little more). Alternately, you could get them machined to add flutes, dimples, grooves, etc.

By the way: I know I mentioned SS specifically as a material, but the only reason I did so was because the current all-metal Spydercos come in SS. It would be relatively easy to produce the scales in other materials, and using something like aluminium would probably decrease the cost and weight, as well as making it easier to machine. You could still do sprint runs with titanium scales (or full titanium handles) or other exotic metals.

Actually, that might be a good way of gauging interest: A sprint run of a common model, using the G-10 handle as a base, with metal scales. Even aluminium would be great...

 

[ev13wt]

Too heavy, too slippery, to cold during winter. BUT, anyone that runs a cnc mill can make them for you, recessed or not.

 

[pope_face]

I love a good debate...

Too heavy, too slippery, to cold during winter. BUT, anyone that runs a cnc mill can make them for you, recessed or not.

I will concede the weight, slipperiness, and temperature points. However, I would like to reiterate (not to ev13wt in particular, but in general):

I am not suggesting that Spyderco drop it's current G-10 or FRN offerings and replace them with SS handled versions. What I am suggesting is an "update" to the current SS handles to fit better with the other handles currently being produced, namely the G-10.

Spyderco already produces SS handles, which means that there is a market for them. The people that don't like SS handles don't like them for the same reasons listed: Weight, slipperiness, and temperature. The "updated" (if you will) handles will not eliminate those issues, unless they are machined with grooves/dimples/etc to save weight and increase grip. The updated handles also won't replace G-10 or FRN.

Allow me to put it this way: How many of you would like to see the Delica 4 or Endura 4 with a G-10 handle? I know they've done sprint runs in the past, but if you missed out on that your only options are to either find one used, or wait until the next run. You can, however, pick up a new Delica or Endura in either an FRN or SS handle.

Most people seem to love G-10, and have strong feelings one way or another towards SS (love it or hate it). FRN seems to fall in the middle... Better than SS (for most), yet not as nice as G-10. However, if G-10 isn't available, most would probably go for the FRN.

My understanding is that, if you happen to have a G-10 Spyderco, you can usually get aftermarket scales for it. Some of those could be in G-10, but just in different colour combinations than normally offered by Spyderco.

Now, imagine that Spyderco replaced their current SS handles with the same liners and screws from the G-10 models, but with SS scales instead. Now, buying a SS handled Delica 4 doesn't sound as bad, does it? Even if you hate the feel of SS, you could easily swap the scales out for G-10, without having to "settle" for FRN. Bam, instant G-10 handled knife, available anytime, for a (hopefully) comparable price to G-10. Alternately, for people like me, it means I can get an all metal knife that is screwed together without having to wait for a sprint run of G-10, and then getting metal scales machined. To be honest, it sounds like a win-win to me.

However, this is all just speculation... I don't know what the financial or technical implications are in making this switch, but from my perspective it might increase sales of models currently considered "less desirable" by some, hopefully without having a serious impact on sales of those models by people who actually want them. Then again, perhaps Sal and company haven't done this for some undisclosed reason... Maybe using the same core as the G-10 models might make the sprint runs less desirable, although judging by the number of Spydercos owned by some people, I doubt it would make much of a difference...

Discussion?

 

[rycen]

Spyderco doesn't want you taking apart the knives. The screws are there for them to disassemble not us. I can imagine it's quite frustrating to receive a knife in for repair that been messed with by somebody who thinks they can fix it.

I'm okay with not having every model screwed together. It's less maintenance and less to worry about something going wrong.

Also maybe I'm missing something but I don't understand why you think if the stainless models were screw construction that somehow would make it easier to change the scales. It can be already done with the FRN and G10 models easily.

 

[pope_face]

Spyderco doesn't want you taking apart the knives. The screws are there for them to disassemble not us. I can imagine it's quite frustrating to receive a knife in for repair that been messed with by somebody who thinks they can fix it.

I'm okay with not having every model screwed together. It's less maintenance and less to worry about something going wrong.

Also maybe I'm missing something but I don't understand why you think if the stainless models were screw construction that somehow would make it easier to change the scales. It can be already done with the FRN and G10 models easily.

True, I'm sure Spyderco doesn't want people disassembling the knives, yet they still make the G-10 and FRN models with screws. I'm not saying it's bad, I'm just saying that the current SS handle construction doesn't allow that.

As for receiving knives for repair that have been messed with: This is more of a warranty thing... I'm sure if the knife has been disassembled, it's no longer under warranty, which means Spyderco is free to charge you to fix it. I have nothing against that... They need to pay their employees to fix something that somebody else screwed up. However, the same applies if you break the blade by prying with it, or destroy the grind or profile by improper sharpening. I doubt they remedy either of those for free, so fixing the internals shouldn't be any different.

True, it might be nice not to worry about the construction, but the current SS models use pins to hold the two halves together... It seems that there's just as much that could go wrong with those. Moreover, you can't adjust the pivot tension on the current SS models, which is something that many people seem to like to do. Just because something has screws, doesn't mean you have to disassemble it, but it does give you the option.

As for changing scales: I'm not saying that a SS model with screws would make it easier to change scales than a G-10 model; I'm saying that an SS model with screws would make it easier to disassemble. However, if you have an SS model, you could put G-10 scales on it. Yes, you could simply buy a G-10 model and put SS scales on it (which I intend to do), but some of the models don't have a G-10 option (see the Delica 4 and Endura 4 point in my post above). The FRN is more difficult to machine scales for due to the recessed liners, whereas the G-10 models have full-sized liners, and you can simply use a slab of whatever material you want and shape it with basic tools.

Again, the reason I bring this up is not to eliminate the FRN or G-10 models; the reason I bring it up is to give the SS models some of the same qualities that are desirable on the FRN and G-10 models. I'm not trying to suggest radical changes that will affect everyone, but rather changes that will be vastly beneficial to some while having minimal (if any) impact to others. If you don't like SS handles, you probably won't like these either. If you like SS handles, and don't care whether they're pinned, then again, no difference. But, if you like SS handles, but don't like the pinned construction, then this is an upgrade.

 

[rycen]

True, it might be nice not to worry about the construction, but the current SS models use pins to hold the two halves together... It seems that there's just as much that could go wrong with those. Moreover, you can't adjust the pivot tension on the current SS models, which is something that many people seem to like to do. Just because something has screws, doesn't mean you have to disassemble it, but it does give you the option.

As for changing scales: I'm not saying that a SS model with screws would make it easier to change scales than a G-10 model; I'm saying that an SS model with screws would make it easier to disassemble. However, if you have an SS model, you could put G-10 scales on it. Yes, you could simply buy a G-10 model and put SS scales on it (which I intend to do), but some of the models don't have a G-10 option (see the Delica 4 and Endura 4 point in my post above). The FRN is more difficult to machine scales for due to the recessed liners, whereas the G-10 models have full-sized liners, and you can simply use a slab of whatever material you want and shape it with basic tools.

You're overthinking it. By the time you need to replace a stainless model for problem I'm sure it's past it's useful life. Also most of the models made with liners are nested. It would very difficult to make scales with just basic hand tools.

Have you carried an SS model for a long period of time?

Keep in mind that Spyderco has been using pinned construction since 1981.

The only thing I can see that may be a benefit is a adjustable pivot. Then again it's just another screwed to lose. Maybe I'm just resistant to change but you definitely picked a company that's not afraid try new things.

 

[The Deacon]

I doubt you'll get much support for your idea. If I'm not mistake, the last new pinned construction all stainless locking folder Spyderco introduced was the Lava, in 2006. Since then any "all metal" knives have either stainless with screws, or titanium, also with screws. The folks who buy the all stainless versions of the Police, Delica, Endura, and Dragonfly apparently like them the way they are and there's also a chance that a thicker fastener would require a complete redesign. The vast majority of folks who buy G-10 and FRN would not be interested in a material that adds weight and provides no traction and those who buy FRN would probably also object to the higher cost. Heck it might even cost more to produce a knife with steel scales over steel liners than to produce one with G-10 scales over the same liners.

 

[pope_face]

You're overthinking it. By the time you need to replace a stainless model for problem I'm sure it's past it's useful life. Also most of the models made with liners are nested. It would very difficult to make scales with just basic hand tools.

Have you carried an SS model for a long period of time?

Keep in mind that Spyderco has been using pinned construction since 1981.

The only thing I can see that may be a benefit is a adjustable pivot. Then again it's just another screwed to lose.

Ah, I didn't realize they'd used pinned construction for that long... In that case, I suppose there's probably a reason it hasn't been changed. Any idea when they started doing polymer handles, or using screws? It seems like even some of the more recent polymer models use rivets in the handle (based on pictures I've seen), although I can't tell for sure.

And no, I haven't carried a SS model for a long time... Are you asking in terms of weight or longevity? If it's the former, then all I can comment on is the fact that Spyderco does make SS knives currently, and some of them are small enough for EDC. If it's the latter, then I've never compared the longevity of a SS model with a polymer handle either.

Perhaps I'm living in the past, and still perceive polymers to be cheap and less durable than metal. I'm sure that's the case with some things (there's a reason they don't make most tools out of plastic), but perhaps G-10 (and even FRN) will be more than sufficient for the stresses a knife will see on a regular basis. Still, I do like the thought of an all-metal handle, especially if it can be disassembled... It may not be entirely rational, but oh well.

And yeah, making scales with hand tools would take forever, but that's why I was referring to the G-10 models specifically. It looks like those liners aren't nested, so the scales could have a flat back and still fit snugly against the knife. If you had some material of the proper thickness, then a few measurements and a little cutting with an angle grinder would get you the basic shape. Drill a few holes for screws, clean everything up with some sandpaper, and you're done.

Somehow, I get the feeling this whole thing isn't going to go that well for me... I may have to just make some metal scales for a G-10 knife and try to convince you guys that way.

 

[pope_face]

I doubt you'll get much support for your idea. If I'm not mistake, the last new pinned construction all stainless locking folder Spyderco introduced was the Lava, in 2006. Since then any "all metal" knives have either stainless with screws, or titanium, also with screws. The folks who buy the all stainless versions of the Police, Delica, Endura, and Dragonfly apparently like them the way they are and there's also a chance that a thicker fastener would require a complete redesign. The vast majority of folks who buy G-10 and FRN would not be interested in a material that adds weight and provides no traction and those who buy FRN would probably also object to the higher cost. Heck it might even cost more to produce a knife with steel scales over steel liners than to produce one with G-10 scales over the same liners.

I didn't realize that their new models came with screws... It's kind of funny, the models you mentioned are the ones that I specifically liked: The Delica, Endura, and Police (the Dragonfly is a little small for me).

However, you are absolutely right: Those that buy FRN probably wouldn't buy the SS due to cost, and the SS may cost more than the G-10 to produce. That was actually one of my concerns, although I was thinking more along the lines of shipping costs, although I suppose material costs may also be higher.

I appreciate the insightful post.

 

[Joe58]

Not trying to persuade you from a Spyderco knife by any means as they're fine products and I have many.

But I was just curious if you've looked at the Lionsteel models with their solid Ti and aluminum handles? Nicely fluted and well made. Just a thought. I was going to pm that to you but you're not setup for pm's or email. And I know Spyderco has done a pretty cool collab with Lionsteel.

 

[pope_face]

Not trying to persuade you from a Spyderco knife by any means as they're fine products and I have many.

But I was just curious if you've looked at the Lionsteel models with their solid Ti and aluminum handles? Nicely fluted and well made. Just a thought. I was going to pm that to you but you're not setup for pm's or email. And I know Spyderco has done a pretty cool collab with Lionsteel.

Oops, I didn't realize that registered members don't get PM abilities... Kind of an odd setup, compared to every other forum I've been on.

As for the Lionsteel: I took a look at my local shop, and it looks like they stock them. It doesn't look to bad... Seems like some of the stuff is comparable in price to the Spyderco. I doubt I'll be picking one up anytime soon, but I'll compare them to the Spydercos when I'm on the hunt for something a bit nicer. It seems that Benchmade also gets a decent reputation, so I may get a feel for a couple of those as well.