Resource for Japanese water stone information?

F

FlameCycle

Joined
Jan 23, 2012
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I'm getting interested in waterstones, but there seem to be so many options and features I don't fully understand. I've done some Google searching but mainly find seller information which I am skeptical of and doesn't really create an objective basis to select between. I've lurked here a bit too but information is so fragmented since individual threads tend to discuss only individual stones or reccomend progressions for specific steels. I really just want to gain a good general understanding of the field before forming opinions or making any decisions. I'm a bit overwhelmed.

Can anyone point me to somewhere I can get good info (ideally explanations and comparisons between the various waterstone options)?
 
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I'd still love a good general educational source if anyone knows one, but I'll bump with some more specific questions and hope somebody knowledgeable bites.

I'm considering a medium grit waterstone as a gift to my father/parents (he doesn't sharpen yet, i'd be teaching him, my experience is on diamond stones) hoping to start a possible future collection or a series of gifts over the next couple years. I'd like something that will function well on its own and that will be versatile in options to supplement with finer and coarser stones. If it turns out they don't use it, i guess it would become the one stone at their house I use to clean up their knives when i visit. Bang for buck is always a consideration for me.

Some possible stones that have come up in my research are a bester 1200, shapton pro 1000, arashiyama 1000. Are any of these a better or worse idea than the others? Am I failing to consider something else that would be great? Thanks.
 
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Typically, it's recommended that the 1k stone be the first for a new sharpener. You can do a lot with a 1k stone and if it's all you have then you are forced to make the best of it. It works, but can be frustrating is the knives are very dull or if the expectation of sharpness is beyond the 1k's ability. It would also help to know the knives he will be sharpening and their current condition to make a better recommendation.

I would point to the Shapton stones though, there hard and fast cutting stones that tend to "get the job done".
 
It can be hard to find honest information about any sharpening technique or media. I've found this forum to pretty darn open minded and not driven / owned by a retailer. If your new to it there is going to be ups and downs. Stones you like and don't like. The upside is you can sell the stones that you doesn't like and move on to something else. Its all completely subjective to the individual. As some like stuff you may not.

I would agree with Jason that the Shapton Pro stones would be a good and relatively inexpensive place to start. Plus a Atoma 140 for flattening and tough work. Personally I favor the Nubatama stones. A 150/1200 combo stone along with a 5k is great set to start off with.
 
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Thank you for the input guys. Jason most of what I 'know' is from some back logged threads of yours over the years and some of your YouTube videos, really appreciate your advice. The shapton pro 1k or 1.5k are at the top of my list now. I'll also add the nubutama 1.2k to consideration.

The steels they will mostly be sharpening are a hodge podge of stainless kitchen blades, I don't have specifics but mostly cheap ones and 1 recently purchased nicer Japanese chefs knife. I think my dad has an old benchmade pocket knife too, I'd guess 154 cm. Not sure what they may acquire in the future.

As for condition, pretty dull but not horrible because I sharpen up their more used blades with the dmts when I visit about once a year, but they treat them horribly. I'd probably at least set bevels for their worst knives for them and hope they could maintain them over a year's period or so - I think they could get away without a course stone at least initially because I'll intervene for the difficult blades.

Ideally the stone would work well with minimal lapping, again it's possible it only gets flattened about one a year, although I don't expect the stone to get used more than for a monthly fix up of 10 or so blades. I could be wrong, I hope dad gets into it and uses the stone regularly.
 
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If your going to look at Nubatama look at the 1k xhard speckled Ume stone. Big, thick 1k with lots of cutting power and great feedback. Conbine that with the 140 Atoma to flatten and you old be able to handle most anything.

Beyond the 1k, if interested, I would recommend a 2k stone to follow. Jumping any higher from this particular would not be advisable. 2k is a nice finishing point anyways.
 
FlameCycle said:
Thank you Pierre, this is the type of thing I was looking for. Strange that it's so hard to find anything semi comprehensive on the subject.
Click to expand...

You're welcome. Here's a grit size chart for some popular brands. It's quite easy to make the jump from 1000 grit to 4000/6000 grit without any problems on common stainless steels. I've done this for nearly 20 years now and it works pretty well.

If you can get your hands on the Sigma II 1000 grit, you'll be amazed at how fast it works if you compare it to aluminum oxide stones of the same grit. I was blown away the first time I tried it, and there is no going back for me. Jason B is right about the Atoma 140 grit, it's a workhorse too.
Gritchart_zpslxzczuuj.jpg


Most important thing is to have fun. If you aren't too familiar with sharpening methods, have a look at Murray Carter's videos on YouTube. He's a master bladesmith, and his knives have a rep for being top of the class for sharpness. Personal piece of advice, when we start sharpening on stones, the most common mistake is to make the angle too thick. With practice, you'll be amazed at the results you will get when you lower the sharpening angle:thumbup:

[video=youtube;5stV_1kID-U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5stV_1kID-U[/video]
 
Flame,

Unfortunately the state of online discussion of Japanese synthetic stones is really actually pretty bad, with people often recommending stones based on what they've used or liked without even attempting to quantify important qualities of how the stones behave, or how they respond to being used in different ways.

With Japanese synthetic stones there are a bunch of factors that will enter into shaping what will work for you, and it can be difficult to get an idea of what your preferences will be until you've tried a few different stones.

1) Hardness: Harder stones (like Naniwa Chosera or Shapton Glass) tend to be easier to use because they are gouge resistant, require less lapping, and are less likely to generate a slurry that will impact (and round) the apex while you are sharpening. Softer stones tend to create more and thicker slurries, which can be used deliberately to prevent burr formation and to even out slight angle variations, but softer stones also tend to be slower cutting since a slurry cuts slower than the stone underneath.

2) Muddiness: As above, muddiness influences cutting speed and polish, but must be considered in two ways: In terms of will the stone generate a slurry in use sharpening blades, or can it be made to generate a slurry by scuffing with a nagura or diamond plate. Again, less muddy stones (that avoid having metal swarf stick to the stone surface) will cut faster and be easier to get a high sharpness on, but be more likely to cause a burr and leave a streakier finish on the bevel.

3) Tendency to load: Will black swarf from the blade stick to the stone, clogging it and slowing it down? Or can it be washed off easily?

4) Porosity: Does the stone need to be soaked? Can it be soaked to change its behavior? Can it be permasoaked? Can it be used as a splash and go? Will it hold water or does it needs to be sprayed regularly?

5) Pressure: How does the stone respond to changes in pressure? How does it work using light, medium and heavy pressure, and how does that accord with the pressure I tend to use and the behavior I want?

6) Feedback: How much auditory and tactile indication does the stone give on whether you are holding the intended angle or not?

Now realize that based on if/how long you soak a stone, whether you lap it to generate a slurry, how much pressure you use, and what steels you are cutting the same stones can show wildly different behavior and you start to see that finding anything useful out about these stones can be a bit of a challenge. Most of the time your best bet is honestly to play around with google and comb through the scattered information you find to start, and then to start threads in the places Japanese synthetic stones are discussed and ask for input based on what you are looking for.
 
Pierre Couture said:
You're welcome. Here's a grit size chart for some popular brands. It's quite easy to make the jump from 1000 grit to 4000/6000 grit without any problems on common stainless steels. I've done this for nearly 20 years now and it works pretty well.

If you can get your hands on the Sigma II 1000 grit, you'll be amazed at how fast it works if you compare it to aluminum oxide stones of the same grit. I was blown away the first time I tried it, and there is no going back for me. Jason B is right about the Atoma 140 grit, it's a workhorse too.
Gritchart_zpslxzczuuj.jpg


Most important thing is to have fun. If you aren't too familiar with sharpening methods, have a look at Murray Carter's videos on YouTube. He's a master bladesmith, and his knives have a rep for being top of the class for sharpness. Personal piece of advice, when we start sharpening on stones, the most common mistake is to make the angle too thick. With practice, you'll be amazed at the results you will get when you lower the sharpening angle[emoji106]

[video=youtube;5stV_1kID-U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5stV_1kID-U[/video]
Click to expand...
Thanks again, great info.

And I'm totally on board for the lower sharpening angles, over the past few months I've begun reprofiling most of my user knives down to about 10 dps with micro bevels, it's night and day. I use dmt stones right now and am actually happy with the results. Im just interested in waterstones generally but can't justify getting one for myself so I figure getting one for my parents would be a good gift and give me a chance to try them out too.
 
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