Respirator or no respirator, that is the question… (part 2)

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Feb 18, 2005
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Respirator or no respirator, that is the question… tis noblest in the mind...well, never mind the Bill Shakespeare. How does everyone feel about wearing respirators? Mine is decent, though it fogs up my safety glasses when I wear it. I am torn between blindness or cancer. Has anyone read a report saying metal filings cause cancer, or the dust that is o’ so common in my shop causes cancer….. :confused:
 
i never were a mask becuase i have the fog problem too. i sneeze black after alot of grinding though. i highly doubt steel filing cause cancer. we all gotta get our iron somehow right?! and who made up this report anyway?
 
Thanks for the input, Elven, but I grew up near a steel plant where many are now dead due to cancer. I just want to make sure. Death is a pretty big gamble without data to analyze (the engineer coming out of me).
 
I'm no steel manufacturing engineer, But I'd take a guess it's the cemicals used to etch the scale off the sheets and the large quantities of additives and alloying elements et al that killed those guys, Iron and carbon are not in themselves carcinogenic. I understand zinc fumes are not good for you so did they deal with galvanising at the plant too?
 
The biggest danger to knifemakers is airborne dust from handles and the silica from belts. Steel dust isn't the worst of our enemies. I too often forgo the mask too but I know I'm killing myself slowly to do it. We feel immortal - until we get sick and die an ugly, lingering death. Wear your respirator!

If you wear a beard, and even if you don't, a supplied air mask may be the way to go. It forces clean air over your face so the fogging wouldn't be a problem. Trouble is the cost, near $1000. (About the price of a morning in a hospital...the first of hundreds if you don't wear your mask.)
 
ddavelarsen said:
...a supplied air mask may be the way to go. It forces clean air over your face so the fogging wouldn't be a problem. Trouble is the cost, near $1000.

Maybe not! I've been eyeing this one in the Garrett Wade catalog for a while now. What do you guys think?

-Allin
 
That is NOT a supplied air hood.It is just a plain cartridge mask with a fan.It is overpriced and only as good as the filter.A supplied air hood has a filtered source.IMHO
that filter is an overpriced novelty .I put it in the same class as the "scuba" filter.
 
ddavelarsen said:
The biggest danger to knifemakers is airborne dust from handles and the silica from belts.
There is another item that is potentially more dangerous. If you are grinding fast and generating sparks, you are also generating smoke. Nasty elements within the metals are in the smoke. Vanadium is bad and you can get poisoned fairly quickly.

Having spontaneous nose bleeds at knife shows tends to scare away customers. :eek:
 
Anyone do you know if the corian dust is dangerous or not?
I forgot to wear my respirator couple days ago. :confused:
 
I used to have problems with my shop glasses fogging up and because of the way my respirator fit my face my glasses wouldn't fit quite right so occassionally I'd still get things in my eyes. I ended up going to a full face respirator/eye protector. It's a double cartridge type respirator with the rest being clear plastic for eye protection. It works really well, I wear this alot more than I did my other setup.

It wasn't cheap but given that I will wear this as opposed to my old one sitting on the shelf it's worth it to me.

Although it might scare your children!

Sean
 
If you're fogging up your glasses, you either don't have the mask fitted properly, or you're wearing one of those paper monstrosities meant only to keep low flying birds out of your lungs when mowing the lawn.

I'm tired of making the speech about wearing the properly fitted respirator, with the correct canisters, so lets just say they have an award for those that don't/won't wear one.
http://www.darwinawards.com/

Just about everything knifemakers use is toxic to some degree. Some to a tremendous degree.
The dying is the easy part. Having to live with an oxygen bottle as your constant companion, and having massive doses of pills for your meals several times a day, and being sensitive to every chemical out there is one hell of a lot worse than dying!:eek: :barf:

People that forge aren't immune either. Like Chuck said, when metal is heated, it gives of metallic vapors, none of them good. There used to be a couple of smiths that prided themselves on forging CPM-T440V(V=Vanadium), and of course, if you forge, no need to wear a sissy respirator.
Well, they don't make knives anymore. I believe one died finally, the other is still hanging on, barely. :(

Don't count on your doctor finding the cause of your problems when they arise, and affecting a cure. Toxic poisoning is way beyond their capabilities. They'll treat the symptoms as you die.
 
Mike....do you have any good suggestions on a full face, forced air respirator that filters out chemical fumes? The reason I use the trend is because of a beard.
Even though it's primary purpose is dust collection, what about one of those shop dust collectors ? How well do they work for keeping down dust and sucking away fumes ?

Sean
 
zinc makes you throw up and have stomach cramps after a couple hours past being exposed. i dot think there is any other side effects.
is there anything bad comming of the vapors of 5160 and the steels in the 10xx range?
 
S.Shepherd said:
Mike....do you have any good suggestions on a full face, forced air respirator that filters out chemical fumes? The reason I use the trend is because of a beard.
Even though it's primary purpose is dust collection, what about one of those shop dust collectors ? How well do they work for keeping down dust and sucking away fumes ?

Sean
With a beard, this would be the proper way to go, and there are several on the market. I don't have direct experience with forced air types, but I always gravitate towards 3-M company stuff. I've found in the past that they are usually right up there at the top.
Mike Fitzgerald uses one by a company called Airware America, I think. Or maybe that's just where he got it. Either way, he's sick with the flu at the moment, or he would post, but here's a site with most of the major brands.
http://www.airwareamerica.com/

You can also find the 800#'s of the various manufacturers and speak to their safety people to get first rate information.

If you get a full face unit, get something we used to call tear off's in the motorcycle racing scene. It's a pack of about 10 nylar, or whatever clear stick on lens covers, and as one gets scratched up from grinding debris hitting it, just tear it off, and you have a clear new one underneath. It keeps the grinding abrasive dust from ruining the face mask. They have the same thing for the inside windows of abrasive blast cabinets too.

For cartridges, the basic one for what knifemakers use should be one that protects against organic vapors, and formaldehyde. The latter is produced by grinding micarta, among other things, and regular canisters don't protect against it.
Get adapters, and cotton dust prefilters to fit over the cartridges too, as it will keep those cartridges working a lot longer by keeping contaminates out of them

Here's a few safety sites.
http://calsafety.buyol.com/Item/GMA815355.htm

http://www.mmm.com/

http://www.acgih.org/home.htm

http://www.labsafety.com/home.htm

http://www.westernsafety.com/index.html

http://www.leonardsafety.com/Pages/Catalog/3M_Low_Maintenance_Dual_Cartridge_1103.html
 
I'm totally lost. I'm looking for a fairly cheap model (the bottom end of the effective models). These seem to be the half-mask dual cartridge types -- around $20-$30, extra cartridges around $7.50 to $11.

Can anyone offer a good name/model for a half mask, AND what type of filters are needed. I'm working strock removal with Al oxide belts, wood dust (nothing exotic yet), and home made Micarta-style composites made with fiberglass resin and demin. I also do welding, some soldering, and use various organic solvents/paints at times.

What types of cartridges are required for these duties? I know one type of cartridge probably won't do all of them. The grinding of the faux-Micarta is probably the most immediatly dangerous (it smells the worst). I've got about a week before I'm erady to grind the Micarta and would love to be equiped by them...
 
Here's what I do: If I step into my shop to do anything other than drill, glue scales on, do some light filing or wet sand something I wear my respirator and usually turn on my dust collector, too. Although, my dust collector uses bags for woodworking, and I've seen more dust in the air after filing carbon fiber and G-10 than I would've if it hadn't been on, so I don't use it that much right now because I think the bags aren't fine enough to catch what I'm making. But, in any case, I pretty much wear a respirator all the time. Is it uncomfortable? A little. The main thing is it makes my neck sore after a while because it's a bit heavy. But, I see my chiropractor and I don't have to worry about killing myself with my hobby.

If you pay attention, you'll hear of an awful lot of knifemakers who have really bad health, quit working because of health reasons, etc. I'll bet if you could ask, most of them would say they regret not taking airborne particulates more seriously, but that's just a guess.

zinc makes you throw up and have stomach cramps after a couple hours past being exposed. i dot think there is any other side effects.
I wouldn't be too sure about that. What form is ziinc found in steel in? Metal fumes can cause "metal fume fever" and things like that. Zinc fumes typically don't, but depending on the form the metal is in (oxides, chlorides, etc) the effeccts can differ and have varying levels of toxicity.

The bottom line is, in my professional opinion, it's a lot better to err on the side of overprotection. Mike is right that a lot of the symptoms involved in these problems mimic other problems. "Gee, Doc, I got a cough, a fever, I'm feeling terrible..." "Her ya go, son. Take this antibiotic and you'll be all set. See you when I see you..." I used to have a patient who would turn yellow every now and then. His MD diagnosed him as having some sort of obscure genetic condition called Wilson's disease, but I think he sort of missed the part when the patient explained how he works on a clean-up crew in a food factory and sprays equipment down using super-heated chemicals that mist and fume, etc. I asked what kind of respirator he used and he had no idea what I was talking about. I asked about mouth, face and lung protection, skin protection, etc and he said "None." So, I think it was pretty likely the guy was overloading his liver with toxins, but what do I know?

So, anyway, don't expect your doctor to catch any of this because a lot of the signs and symptoms mimic less serious problems. Have a hair analysis done someday to check out if you're being exposed to high levels of heavy metals and you may be surprised (unless you're taking the proper precautions).
 
i use a commercial paint resirator, dual carbon filters, if it can keep out toxic
paint fumes it should be able to keep out grinding dust of any kind. imo
 
S2nd said:
I use the half-face 3M mask shown here: 3M LINK

It was about $27+tax at Home Depot. My lungs thanked me.
I use about the same thing with #6005 cartridges, which are for organic vapor, and formaldehyde protection, plus the adapters, and cotton prefilters over them.

Formaldehyde gas is given off by working(grinding) micarta, and it's an ingredient in many other things knifemakers use, like their grinding belts.:eek:
So, better safe than sorry.

I'm watching a guy from my window who's building a house for someone. He's dumping cement in the mixer, and I watch the dust rise up past his face. He then proceeds to cut cinder block with a diamond blade, and the dust around his head is unbelievable. He walks around the site coughing, and horking huge lugies, yet no respirator. I guess it would get in the way of the cigarette he has constantly hanging from his lips.
His choice to not wear the protection, but his wife, and kids will probably miss him when he's gone(?).
 
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