Revisiting the "big blade" survival knife debate...

[Huntsman Knife Co. LLC.]

I think most people have realized that a two knife setup - bushcrafter/hunter + big knife/machete is a really great setup for the woods and is superior to a single mid sized blade.

My current setup is a Chris Berry 13 inch Bolo and a small knife like the scrap max, rodent solution, etc...

I love the feel and look of do it all mid sized blades but they just don't get the job done as well. From my experience the SYKCO 711 and the Swamp Rat Chopweiler are the best do it all mid sized blades. They can chop but are also really comfortable for fine work. Neither will slice well but thats a low priority for a "survival knife."

 

[meanwhile]

well, ive never handled a junglas. if you can believe what you read on the internet (lol) then the junglas is heavier than a lot of machetes with substantially longer blades.

That's pretty much the point: regular machetes are made thin and light for clearing light stuff. The cost of this is that they're less than optimal for cutting thicker and harder wood: the Junglas tries to keep some clearing capability with some more of an axes's heavy chopping ability. Like most camp knives, really.

 

[meanwhile]

Ditto.
Not much of scientific, on the contrary Idiotic!


Monster outdoors knife are better than kitchen knive in kitchen use
[video=youtube;dQcBbTXMypk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQcBbTXMypk&feature=plcp[/video]

I think this shows a major problem with trying to reason with Mall Ninjas:

Mall Ninja 1: Big KniVEs cannot slice!

Mall Ninja 2: This video shows a MACHEte being used for cutting onions! This is TEH krazzee! No one would do that!

The point is, bright boy, that the Keffler is a super-huge chopper but the test with the onions shows that it can slice well, disproving your colleague's contention. (In fact, the Keffler's sharpness is so high that it out-slices the santoku it is compared to.) Cliff is NOT saying that you should use a super-machete for dicing onions!

..And it really says something about the lack of common sense among some people here than I need to explain this...

Further indulging in the Wisdom Of Mall Ninjas...

Recurve blade cutting better than straight blade....grass

Way to miss the point, Gecko. Which was not that "grass is a worthy opponent for the warrior" or "you need an optimized grass cutting blade" but to test how well the recurve geometry **on that particular knife** does at trapping a flexible target and increasing force on it. Which is why Cliff took a BLUNTED knife and used a super-flexible cutting medium. This is one of several sensible tests you should do on a recurve to see if the maker got the geometry right.

 

[Balldboy]

Outstanding responses.
The only reason I'm not responding is that I'm learning much.
Thank you.
:thumbup:

Ditto...I've pulled off the road and I'm just taking in all the knowledge.

 

[22-rimfire]

I favor a two or three blade approach generally. I have developed a serious liking for the Condor Pack Golok which is similar in terms of use as the ESEE Junglas might be for a chopper. Then a smaller fixed blade (3-5") and a folder such as a SAK in the pocket. I would leave whichever knife home that does not seem to a practical fit for the woods use planned depending on whether it be over night or not.

 

[demoteamone]

Further indulging in the Wisdom Of Mall Ninjas...

Cliff Stamp PH.d in metallurgy and the his own videos make him the King of the Mall Ninjas.

The sophistication in which he deals with knives..Make Cliff less scientific compare with Noss and more scientific compare with science fiction movie.

Way to miss the point, Gecko. Which was not that "grass is a worthy opponent for the warrior" or "you need an optimized grass cutting blade" but to test how well the recurve geometry **.

Recurve knife vs straight knife is a long debate...
If you too trying to convince me, that the Recurve knife will entrapment grass better than a straight knife And consequently cutting better "both of you're idiot".
I know Cliff can do much much better than that.....

 

[blt-2-drg]

I use to be a "big knife" kind of guy, but lately i've come to realize i can handle the same tasks with a 3-4" blade.

My prefered carry combo now is a Victorinox Trekker, ESEE 3, and Bahco Laplander.

I have a Fiskars 6" carabiner saw on the way that might replace the Laplander since i rarely need a saw.

I still have my big choppers, including the Junglas, for fun but i cant see carrying around the extra weight if i dont have to.

 

[Hawkings]

Now that I'm more experienced with my blades, I've been thinking about
what I'd really need in a survival knife. The thing that I'd see myself using it
for most would be for fire & shelter building.

When I've used my ESEE-6, I've looked at stuff I'd want to tackle
(like chopping down small trees), but didn't think it'd be a bright idea
to do it with a 6" blade. Of course, in a survival situation, I'd do what
I'd have to do to get what I'd need.

So, I was thinking about an ESEE Junglas paired with a Mora
Companion/Robust for a relatively cheap set-up (<$200.).

Question:
What "couldn't" I do with the Junglas/Mora Combo that I could do with the ESEE-6?

Basically, it's either a super big knife or a scaled down machete IMO.
I'm sure it's a chopping beast and would probably run rings around
anything else smaller in building shelter. Could it be the best replacement
for an axe/hatchet/machete if I could really only carry one major tool?

Damn...I hear those dueling voices again in my head getting me all
hyped-up to buy another ESEE product.

Well, I think the biggest single diffrence, at the end of the day is, you could loose a knife and still be doing all the knife chores you need to, at a slower rate.

The rest is more or less minor considerations, as to wich line of thinking you like.

 

[ajreberjr]

while I have chopped down an 8" tree with a Cam bk9... too chop down a lot I would rather use an axe.. survival I would take a axe and a marbles 5" inch style blade for the finer work. as well as ... my fav Ruger Blackhawk in 41 mag... lol.. but then I would know I was going to go into survival mode and be carrying a pack. woot..

 

[Balldboy]

while I have chopped down an 8" tree with a Cam bk9... too chop down a lot I would rather use an axe.. survival I would take a axe and a marbles 5" inch style blade for the finer work. as well as ... my fav Ruger Blackhawk in 41 mag... lol.. but then I would know I was going to go into survival mode and be carrying a pack. woot..

41mag...that earned you points.

 

[HoosierQ]

The Junglas chops damn near as well as a camp axe of similar weight - about 90% according to Cliff Stamp's measurements. You'd have to do an amazing amount of chopping the 10% benefit of the axe to pay for the extra pack weight in reduced exertion.

Wow. That sounds about 180 degrees off. I am thinking a Junglas (no offense to ESEE - huge fan here) chops wood about 10% as good as an axe and carrying the extra weight benefits you an extra 90%. I good Khukuri maybe chops half as good as an axe...maybe 33%. A good machete...a full-sized Central American style machete...probably gets you up in the 40 - 50% range at best...for chopping real wood...firewood. For light brush, nothing beats the machete. For that brush, it tends to bounce off the axe.

So for chopping real wood, I'd order them axe (hands down #1), Machete, Khukuri, (possible ties for distant second), Junglas (and similar sized camp knifes) way back for a distant forth.

 

[Maniacal Pete]

I'd rather just bring a four incher, a folding saw, and a small axe.

I'm leaning toward this, too.

I have a GB hand hatchet, a folding Silky saw and an ESEE RC-4 that seem to form a good, cohesive team.

Honestly, I have an RC-3 that I think would serve just as well as the 4.

I also carry a folder, which gets more use than the other three combined.

 

[Jack Black]

One thing to consider is the steel and to buy the correct steel for the purpose you require. Carbon steel as opposed to toolmakers steel and that it has come from a reputable source. Each has it's advantages. Sheffield, England still has a few knife makers producing a variety of craftsman made knives. Some are in such such short supply you can never manage to obtain them. We have a few knives with toolmakers steel blades and others of with carbon steel blades and some pictures on sheffield-gb.com None of these are mass produced but are the products of individual craftsmen.

Bit of a random thread to post this on clarksonxz. Steel is something that gets discussed a great deal on Bladeforums. Are you reccomending any particular Sheffield-made blade to the OP?

 

[rpn]

I really enjoy the abilities a larger blade brings to the table..along with a 4" blade. For the larger blade, the sheath is important to make it a manageable carry.

DogWood Dan has a real cool large blade/small blade set up for sale in the custom section with a baldric carry system.

 

[BOSS1]

Greetings,

I don't own nor have I ever handled the Junglas, but it looks like a good version of the larger/chopper blade from a reputable company. It of course isn't the only big boy on the block. It's probably been covered, but I don't think there's anyone that has found the perfect, all-around do-everything knife. I don't think it exists. Large enough to chop down a good sized tree (at least in less an an hour+) is going to normally be so large as to be unwieldy for many other smaller, finer tasks. And of course, you have to factor in the user's strengths/abilities. What a 6' 6" construction worker with dinner plates for hands finds 'well balanced' will likely be at a completely different spectrum that the 5'6" female outdoor journalist. So you gotta kinda find your own, personal knife. The other thing is while its fun to play the 'if you only had one X' scenario game...those are going to pretty limited situations. Ok, the bush pilot crashed and the planes burning up and you only have about 10 seconds to grab something from the wreckage...maybe...but otherwise, if you're planning in advance, why limit yourself on essential gear such as a knife or knives. If you have found you needed something based on past experience (ie. not taking a 'rambo-ish' knife cuz a mall ninja thought it was cool), then you should take it...or more likely, them. Those will be dictated by the activity, environment, terrain, skills/capabilities, other participants and their gear, etc etc etc.

Shelter building? Hmmm, depends on the scenario. If you're planning or preparing for an overnighter or more (meaning your probably taking some type of backpack and gear, unless you really like roughing it, you'd probably be much better served with one of the small, lightweight tents. Dryer, keeps the bugs/critters out, etc. Building a shelter can take a lot of calories if you get too involved with it (which might be necessary depending on the weather). If you have to build something (can't find a cave, etc), you'd do much better with a simple lean-to type of 'shelter' and that should not take too much time or energy, chopping, etc. Taking advantage or a fallen log or low branch with some covering materials is probably going to be a much wiser use of your time/energy than an elborate shelter. I'd be more concerned with prepping a fire for the night than getting the deck on my shelter just right. And that's where a bigger chopper might offer some of the best benefits...firewood prep. But again, lots of time and calories. I don't think you find too many people chopping through 12"+ logs for too long in a survival situation with a knife.

All that being said, I think at a minimum, if you're planning on going out on a multiday outing, and you're not taking a saw or axe, you'd probably be best served by a mid-sized fixed blade (5-8") and a multi-tool or quality folder such as a SAK .

As for myself, normally if I'm planning any type of a hike over more than an about an hour, I take along a 6-8" fixed blade w/ a smaller folder + fire steel in the sheath pocket. Not that I expect to need it, but I already have 'em setup, so why not throw them on my belt. Can't think of any reason not to, the weigh for me is pretty insignificant. My two top choices are from Busse...the NMSFNO and the TankBuster...see the attached photos. If I'm going to go on a multi-hour outing, I take along my versipack which also has a multitool in it amoung other things. And don't be surprised if I also have a folder clipped to my pocket, as I almost always do. I'm pretty darn confident I could get through about any situation for awhile with this gear...if I didn't, it would much more likely be a failing on my part and not the fact that I didn't had an extra few inches of length on my blade.

My $.02 worth, YMMV.
BOSS

 

[Chris Pierce]

I read your first post, I did not read a single one of the posts after that.

I'd say, that if you want a machete, get a machete. I prefer a small axe and/or a Machete along with a small fixed blade for a folder. I use the small knife a lot more than I use the big one. Something to consider.

 

[Morrow]

We need to stop making other members the topic of conversation. No more insults.

 

[MajorLonghorn]

I'm a light backpacker, so I want to carry the least and lightest possible gear. Carrying a bunch of stuff sounds great in theory, but in practice you quickly realize that if you really don't need it, you really don't want to bring it.

 

[MajorLonghorn]

I'm leaning toward this, too.

I have a GB hand hatchet, a folding Silky saw and an ESEE RC-4 that seem to form a good, cohesive team.

Honestly, I have an RC-3 that I think would serve just as well as the 4.

I also carry a folder, which gets more use than the other three combined.

Keep in mind that the ESEE 3 is thinner than the 4. I picked up the 3 for that purpose, to pair with a larger, thicker knife. The 4 is preferable if you want to pair it with something really small, like an Izula, or something really big, like a Junglas.

 

[BOSS1]

I'm a light backpacker, so I want to carry the least and lightest possible gear. Carrying a bunch of stuff sounds great in theory, but in practice you quickly realize that if you really don't need it, you really don't want to bring it.

Very true...if you're taking along really nice (and spendy) ultralight gear like the tent, cooking stove/device, etc. you can probably get along with alot less in terms of cutting gear, which is certainly a very good way to go. A decent multi-tool or 3-5 inch knife can probably see you though. But for those who are looking more at emergency/survival situations where they may not have brought along all the nice goodies, a quality larger-ish knife possibly paired with a smaller one can make a big difference. Again, proper planning, environment, and what one is trying to do are just some of the many variables.

BOSS