Rick Hinderer sent Cease and Desist to Youtuber for saying the steel was soft in his knife?

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Chuck_Nunface said:
First time I've read the whole complaint. While I think it's petty of RHK to threaten litigation, it does introduce some truths: 1. Social media is a powerful tool and the influence of the upstart entrepreneur should not be underestimated; and 2. actions have consequences and will undoubtedly play out negatively for both participants - Mr. Kim may have bit off a bit more than he can chew and RHK may suffer a further drop in reputation based on the response.

Ultimately, we're a fickle bunch, and will likely not care in a year.
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I contacted Kim probably two months back to see if he can put his funky mirror finish on one of my blades. Answer was something in the line of "yes, but I'm so busy now with producing my own blades that it'll be in a while"...
You're probably following Transparent Blades, because I see your name popping up when I check his feed, I don't know what's your opinion would be about him, but I read too many posts when he's sick and not taking or working on orders, some other excuses and so on, also failed blades - broken, other issues and so on... I believe I saw a segment where he was testing a blade, not sure if it was RH or something else.
This is a serious equipment and if he claims something, he needs to be sure that it is properly tested and calibrated.
In general, he does not appear to me at least, as a person that is taking his job/hobby seriously and also really, the "lower" measurement is just within the stated limits, I don't see the big deal here.
I think this is mostly fuss to bring attention to his IG account and he'll end up stepping back, he's already talking about not having $$ for lawyers and so on...
 
3D Anvil said:
I mean, he has an hrc tester that he uses professionally, so I'd say yes. This stuff isn't rocket science. You calibrate the machine and follow the instructions.
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That doesn't address whether he tested a blade that had been "tampered" with in one way or another, and whether he drew general conclusions on the basis of a faulty sample.

I have no dog in this fight...but it's dangerous to make too many assumptions on too little data...that goes for the "laboratory" as well as public opinion.
 
I have no dog in this fight either, but I tend to side with the "over-reaction" crowd regarding Rick's response.

However, the "thou doth protest too much" ideology makes me seriously wonder what Rick may be trying to hide or cover up, based on his over-the-top, drama-queen reaction.

Of course, everyone is on DEFCON 5 right now, with the recent history of knife-related frauds and untruths.
 
shane45-1911 said:
I have no dog in this fight either, but I tend to side with the "over-reaction" crowd regarding Rick's response.

However, the "thou doth protest too much" ideology makes me seriously wonder what Rick may be trying to hide or cover up, based on his over-the-top, drama-queen reaction.

Of course, everyone is on DEFCON 5 right now, with the recent history of knife-related frauds and untruths.
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As an LEO, I'm sure you've had to, as I have, defend your integrity, whether against a spurious allegation, or during testimony at trial. I valued my good name and reputation, and took pains to ensure it remained that way despite the attempts of miscreants to besmirch it.

So, in that light, I can understand why Hinderer would seek to nip in the bud any wrongfully proffered information which might hurt both his reputation and bottom line.

That said, I have no specific evidence with which to evaluate the current contentions.
 
3D Anvil said:
Brian isn't an amateur. He makes his living by making knives and blades.
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I see that he finishes water jetted blanks, and he also modifies a lot, I may be wrong but it looks mostly oem stuff that he only finishes? Again not familiar with Brian, but just what I gather from his ig.
 
The crux of his argument is not that that particular blade seemed out of spec, but that the spec itself is crap. M390 is a steel that will always be chippy no matter how low your Rockwell it to, so there's no point in running it below 61-62 HRC. Simply stating that opinion should not invoke a lawsuit, as it is indeed a matter of opinion. Even the testing Larrin has done with M390 on his blog has been around 62 HRC. Instead of either taking the feedback as it is, or refuting it, Hinderer decides to squash a small maker through lawsuits and shut them up in the worst way.

Anyone that follows transparent knives knows that he is one of the new generation of knife makers that emphasizes geometry and heat treat. Any opinion that he puts out there should be viewed from that lens obviously. Him stating that the hinderer has a bad spec is not trade libel, defamation or false advertising as the lawsuit claims. It's simply a matter of opinion.
 
Matt Bailey uses Peter's for heat treat, and my model 2 has been exceptional for CPM-154, though I have not used it "hard."

As far as his response, people are sooooo worried about their reputation, and with the idiots on social media being so sensitive, I can understand his reaction as people will "cancel" anything. Its a very difficult time to be a business owner. Hell, its a difficult time in general with all of these overly sensitive morons. For this very reason I do not have a social media presence, and my business a very small one.
 
Blues said:
As an LEO, I'm sure you've had to, as I have, defend your integrity, whether against a spurious allegation, or during testimony at trial. I valued my good name and reputation, and took pains to ensure it remained that way despite the attempts of miscreants to besmirch it.
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Agreed, but the facts always ended up defending my integrity once all the dramatics and knee-jerk reactions settled down.

I just see Rick's (over)reaction as a bit of overkill based on a relatively small anomaly (ie. 1 out of 12) and an accusation made by one person. Mistakes happen and we'll do better next time, is all Rick needed to say IMO. Moving immediately to a multi-page litigious response is a bit premature - unless the allegations are true and deeper running.
 
Yo Mama said:
I see that he finishes water jetted blanks, and he also modifies a lot, I may be wrong but it looks mostly oem stuff that he only finishes? Again not familiar with Brian, but just what I gather from his ig.
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He makes custom fixed blades and he's done regrinds, but his biggest draw right now is doing reblades for Bugouts and AD20.5s. He designs the blade shapes, grinds them, does the heat treats, and, for the Bugouts, he custom fits them for each knife, because the BM tolerances are too wide to mass produce them. For the AD20.5s he's able to produce the blades without custom fitting.

 
DayofReckoning said:
One of the highest regarded knife makers in the business goes with the nuclear option and has a set of lawyers type up a 30 page temper tamp trum, all because a tiny little Instagram account with less than 7,000 subscribers made a negative comment about their steel.

If that's the case, then how many dozens, hundreds of people right here on Bladeforums could be open to a similar lawsuit for results of blade testing that's been posted here that might not exactly fall in line with the manufacturers specs?

Maybe Hinderer is in the right here. Or then again, maybe there is some truth to transparentknives claims and it stuck a nerve. I don't know.

But the situation reminds me of when Tony Marfione snapped and threatened to sue someone over a random comment suggesting he copied the Natrix. The child like "I'll sue you" type reactions seem to suggest there could be some truth to it.

I believe cases like these can easily become a slippery slope.
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Yeah, no. The issue here is that many of those 7,000 subs are a "who's who" of the IG knife guys/pages, so a bunch of them were reposting and discussing this situation, which has gotten it far greater exposure than it might have otherwise.
 
He's not the first maker or manufacturer that I can remember in my years here and elsewhere threatening legal action for any of a variety of reasons.
(I'll go no further into that.)

I agree, Shane...the facts won out in my case as well...but I still had to present them.

Anyway, that's all I have to say about that...as Mr. Gump was fond of saying.

Actions have consequences...on both sides of the street. As they should.
 
nattynarwhal said:
The crux of his argument is not that that particular blade seemed out of spec, but that the spec itself is crap. M390 is a steel that will always be chippy no matter how low your Rockwell it to, so there's no point in running it below 61-62 HRC. Simply stating that opinion should not invoke a lawsuit, as it is indeed a matter of opinion. Even the testing Larrin has done with M390 on his blog has been around 62 HRC. Instead of either taking the feedback as it is, or refuting it, Hinderer decides to squash a small maker through lawsuits and shut them up in the worst way.

Anyone that follows transparent knives knows that he is one of the new generation of knife makers that emphasizes geometry and heat treat. Any opinion that he puts out there should be viewed from that lens obviously. Him stating that the hinderer has a bad spec is not trade libel, defamation or false advertising as the lawsuit claims. It's simply a matter of opinion.
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"Simply a matter of opinion"

Not the way TK was stating it in his IG livestreams.
 
This is what I wake up to this morning?!!

Hinderer knives should put their big boy pants on. What do they expect to gain from suing a dude who probably can’t even pay out IF Hinderer were to win? Just a huge waste of funds and time for Hinderer in my opinion.

The only thing that Hinderer will accomplish is that he gets publicity and sells more knives to his fanbase.

Personally, I had some blades come back from HT at Peter’s that were too soft. He realized that, and contacted us and re-heat treated for free. That is some serious customer service.

Anyone want to go in on a flat of kleenex for Hinderer? He can use one of his overweight knives to hold the box down during this windstorm he created. 🤣☺️

Hinderer knives ain’t perfect. No ones knives are. Be a man with integrity, say “oops, a softer one snuck out, let me replace it.” That would probably get more customer recognition and also cost WAY less then a single lawyers letter.

Whole situation is 🤦‍♂️
 
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shane45-1911 said:
I have no dog in this fight either, but I tend to side with the "over-reaction" crowd regarding Rick's response.
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As someone trained as a lawyer, I have to say that "words have consequences." People on the Net seem to forget this.

Every person or business has the right to defend his/its reputation as a consequence of any false statements (written or verbal) made against them, especially, in the case of a business, when such statements result in any loss of business and/or income.

A "cease and desist" letter is NOT a legal action. It's a "warning" and it's up to the recipient whether s/he wants to take heed of it or not.
 
Quiet said:
"Simply a matter of opinion"

Not the way TK was stating it in his IG livestreams.
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He said that the 59-61 range on hinderers heat treat was a "garbage spec". While I personally would not have used those words myself, I definitely would consider it less than optimal. Legally speaking, is that not an opinion though? Are we not allowed to speak about the opinions we have pertaining to certain manufacturers anymore?
 
3D Anvil said:
I mean, he has an hrc tester that he uses professionally, so I'd say yes. This stuff isn't rocket science. You calibrate the machine and follow the instructions.
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Except that the people testing Lionsteel's M390 just calibrated the machines and followed instructions and then it was shown they were utterly wrong and making claims that were very likely defamatory.

They ended up doing material harm to an excellent dealer that supports Bladeforums and has gone above and beyond to help the community.

Also, knowing how to use an hrc tester professionally and knowing what you can safely extrapolate from the testing data that you get are entirely different skill sets.
 
nattynarwhal said:
He said that the 59-61 range on hinderers heat treat was a "garbage spec". While I personally would not have used those words myself, I definitely would consider it less than optimal. Legally speaking, is that not an opinion though? Are we not allowed to speak about the opinions we have pertaining to certain manufacturers anymore?
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There is a difference between a simple user's opinion, vs. a knife business owner speaking negatively about another maker and/or his product.
 
sgt1372 said:
As someone trained as a lawyer, I have to say that "words have consequences." People on the Net seem to forget this.

Every person or business has the right to defend his/its reputation as a consequence of any false statements (written or verbal) made against them, especially, in the case of a business, when such statements result in any loss of business and/or income.

A "cease and desist" letter is NOT a legal action. It's a "warning" and it's up to the recipient whether s/he wants to take heed of it or not.
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What He Said....jpg
 
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