Right steel for the right job and reducing redundancies + PM2 handle decision

[Chronovore]

Very true on the bead blasted finish corroding much more easily than satin or stonewashed. I used to have a ton of Kershaws back when 13c26 was their main steel. I kept getting little spots of surface rust on my Kershaws, but all the rest of my knives were always spotless. In fact I was just thinking about that this morning. Apparently it was enough of a problem with enough people that they introduced 14c28n. When you look at a bead blasted finish under manification it's just a rough finish with thousands of peaks and valleys and each of those valleys holds water and acidic fluids just like a reservoir. Anyway.. Just something I was thinking about.

This was a wonderfully happy accident. Kershaw's chronic bead-blasting made 13C26 (effectively AEB-L) seem much more rust-prone than it actually is. This led to complaints and a false perception of the problem. This in turn led them to commissioning a new steel from Sandvik. That led to 14C28N, which remains one of the best budget blade steels today.

 

[LimpCroissant]

This was a wonderfully happy accident. Kershaw's chronic bead-blasting made 13C26 (effectively AEB-L) seem much more rust-prone than it actually is. This led to complaints and a false perception of the problem. This in turn led them to commissioning a new steel from Sandvik. That led to 14C28N, which remains one of the best budget blade steels today.

You're right, it was kind of a perfect round of events. 14c28n is one of my favorite steels for sure as an everyday carry blade. Actually my everyday beater knife that I've been carrying as my main cutter for the passed few months now is still in 13c26. It was in a backpack in my parents basement for atleast 2 years and was sitting around unused and unoiled for many years prior. I found it just a few months ago and it had about 3 small spots of fine rust that rubbed off with my fingernail. Pretty good for the way it was treated the last 15 years or so. I'm glad they went to 14c28 though

 

[Bob Denman]

If the spring stays intact, I would love a Manix with a ball lock.

Keeping things in place, and in front of you can be a challenge...
But if I can manage to do it: anybody else in here can!

 

[OrangeBlueOrangeBlue]

Thank you, this is useful info to me because I did not buy K390 yet. My only fear was that ZDP was way more brittle than K390, is this not true?

I think the experience you get with either one will be very dependent on how hard that particular blade is. The HRC database on Spyderco's forum has results for K390 mostly ranging from 62-64 HRC with some up to 65.5; ZDP-189 results range from 63-65, with at least one at 66.4 HRC. Generally, the effect of a 1-HRC difference is more profound for toughness than it is for edge retention. So, K390 (especially at the lower end of the hardness range) will be tougher than ZDP, but the difference in edge retention will be less stark. I wouldn't say ZDP is way more brittle, but it's run very hard and isn't particularly tough, and the knives with ZDP tend to have very fine edges (it's used in high-end kitchen knives because the hardness allows for stable edges at really low angles). But higher hardness, less tough steels can chip out instead of bending, that's just the nature of the tradeoff.

One thing that ZDP has in its favor is that it gets very hard without needing vanadium carbides. The high chromium content means it's mostly chromium carbide, which is just slightly less hard than ceramic, so you can get amazing sharpening results without needing diamond plates. It's also officially discontinued, which is good for collectible value, bad for availability and future warranty. If you have a way to get a ZDP model at or close to retail, you might want to just get it, since you can be pretty confident that somebody will buy it off of you in the event you don't like it.

 

[Hashishiin]

A wharncliffe is just a strong utility knife that's easy to sharpen. It is great for hobbies, crafts, around the house, opening packages.. it will destroy cardboard. I always have one on my Minichamp on my keychain, and I also love it on my Swayback and SE Caribbean.
It is also good for SD if you are into that sort of thing.

Thank you! I have a few dedicated blades that are SD related and the YoJumbo I bought (s30V, might trade up for S90V when it drops if I like the knife enough) just looked SO cool that I had to have it, but it is my first Wharncliffe and I wanted to make sure it would have a good amount of utility otherwise!

That's very true, I forgot about the wharncliffe question.

OP, I've been a huge fan of wharnecliffes since I tried my first one many years ago. I think the first one that I actually used was a Kershaw Needs Work. Before using it I thought that they were lame but then I noticed that the tip is just always right there for yea ready to be used. The lower the tip the more naturally you can grip the knife when doing delicate tip work. It's more ergonomic for me. Also, the cutting media tends to just lead right into the edge instead of sliding up the belly. And just as importantly, they are a god send when it comes time to sharpen. They are just so much easier, especially if you're not super experienced in sharpening yet. It's just so much easier to keep that angle the same throughout and keep that bevel nice and even, and to keep your point from getting rounded with repeated sharpenings.

Thanks for the advice, I thought they seemed handy! Got the YoJumbo, that is why I asked that. I heard they were hard to sharpen, but it seems quite the opposite you are saying!

 

[Hashishiin]

I think the experience you get with either one will be very dependent on how hard that particular blade is. The HRC database on Spyderco's forum has results for K390 mostly ranging from 62-64 HRC with some up to 65.5; ZDP-189 results range from 63-65, with at least one at 66.4 HRC. Generally, the effect of a 1-HRC difference is more profound for toughness than it is for edge retention. So, K390 (especially at the lower end of the hardness range) will be tougher than ZDP, but the difference in edge retention will be less stark. I wouldn't say ZDP is way more brittle, but it's run very hard and isn't particularly tough, and the knives with ZDP tend to have very fine edges (it's used in high-end kitchen knives because the hardness allows for stable edges at really low angles). But higher hardness, less tough steels can chip out instead of bending, that's just the nature of the tradeoff.

One thing that ZDP has in its favor is that it gets very hard without needing vanadium carbides. The high chromium content means it's mostly chromium carbide, which is just slightly less hard than ceramic, so you can get amazing sharpening results without needing diamond plates. It's also officially discontinued, which is good for collectible value, bad for availability and future warranty. If you have a way to get a ZDP model at or close to retail, you might want to just get it, since you can be pretty confident that somebody will buy it off of you in the event you don't like it.

I suspected this may be the case, didn't know it was official from Hitachi, no more, but I was definitely suspecting! Dang, really glad I got it! And glad to hear of the sharpenability!

 

[LimpCroissant]

Thank you! I have a few dedicated blades that are SD related and the YoJumbo I bought (s30V, might trade up for S90V when it drops if I like the knife enough) just looked SO cool that I had to have it, but it is my first Wharncliffe and I wanted to make sure it would have a good amount of utility otherwise!

Thanks for the advice, I thought they seemed handy! Got the YoJumbo, that is why I asked that. I heard they were hard to sharpen, but it seems quite the opposite you are saying!

Yup in my opinion they are sooo much easier to sharpen. That was really the first thing that sold me on them.

 

[UNBLF]

First things first:
The overall design and build, especially the edge geometry and edge angle, of a knife, will have bigger impacts on its actual performance than the steel it comes in.

Secondly:
I admit I'm relatively new to knife sharpening, however I never understood why people would consider the ease of sharpening for a pocket folder. It's definitely something I'd consider for any and all my fixed blade choices, but in my mind, an EDC folder is something you sit down at home and sharpen with all your non-portable solutions after weeks or months of use. For the same reason, I kinda don't understand why "it doesn't need diamond stones" is a plus for EDC folders.

IMO, PM2 is an interesting knife. Its blade stock is thick enough to support extremely hard (and brittle) steels on a full flat grind, while its tip is so fragile (not that I don't love it), making it borderline pointless to try to use tougher steels on it anyway. For me, PM2 is the perfect host for steels like S110v and Maxamet. Any thiner then it will chip even when cutting not-so-hard stuff.
Keep in mind, if you anticipate frequent contact with moisture / liquid, avoid Maxamet. Man does this steel rust. The edge will rust away before being dulled by any other factors.

Corrosion resistance is an interesting quality: It's more pass / fail than any other qualities. For example, H1 > LC200N > Vanax > MagnaCut > 204P. However, if your 204P knife does not rust in your use / environment. Then you do not need to compare this factor for future knife steel choices as long as your options all have equal or greater corrosion resistance than 204P. As long as it passes your certain threshold, it no longer matters.

 

[3D Anvil]

Something I noticed on one of Larrin's charts is that K390 had slightly better edge retention than ZDP-189, even though the K390 was several points lower in hrc.

 

[kobold]

Keep in mind, if you anticipate frequent contact with moisture / liquid, avoid Maxamet. Man does this steel rust. The edge will rust away before being dulled by any other factors.

That is not my experience with Maxamet - it wont rust only patina will form. I used it exclusively for everything for a month, a lot of work in the garden, soft woods, hard woods, harvesting, weeding, everything in the kitchen, for EDC, even cutting aquatic plants. I started out with a thin layer of oil in the beginning, but neglected it on purpose, just to see what would happen and to promote patina.. No red rust at all. Also, it won't chip. https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/pm2-maxamet-appreciation-thread.1782046/#post-20411343

I also used a Para3 Maxamet in a similar manner, for a month, except I did use other knives in the kitchen. No rust, just beautiful patina.

Lastly, my Sage 1, after half a year of light but regular use, (cutting apples and other acidic food), won't even patina all that much. I don't even wipe it, I let the apple juice dry on the blade for more patina. But it's glacial.

Some people have very salty sweat, so pocket carry on a hot day might result in rust, but not in my case.

 

[LimpCroissant]

That is not my experience with Maxamet - it wont rust only patina will form. I used it exclusively for everything for a month, a lot of work in the garden, soft woods, hard woods, harvesting, weeding, everything in the kitchen, for EDC, even cutting aquatic plants. I started out with a thin layer of oil in the beginning, but neglected it on purpose, just to see what would happen and to promote patina.. No red rust at all. Also, it won't chip. https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/pm2-maxamet-appreciation-thread.1782046/#post-20411343

I also used a Para3 Maxamet in a similar manner, for a month, except I did use other knives in the kitchen. No rust, just beautiful patina.

Lastly, my Sage 1, after half a year of light but regular use, (cutting apples and other acidic food), won't even patina all that much. I don't even wipe it, I let the apple juice dry on the blade for more patina. But it's glacial.

Some people have very salty sweat, so pocket carry on a hot day might result in rust, but not in my case.

That was a cool thread, thanks for posting it! I just got me a Maxamet PM3 and I'm loving it so far.