Robert (mete) or Kevin Cashen 1095 problems

[Dan Gray]

hey guys
I'm having a problem with a company trying to get 1095 steel that I ordered from them, as you may know from another thread I posted a while back the first time I got blanks cut from them they sent me junk steel,
Mat one of our own here was good enough to test it for me and indeed it was junk steel, no carbon in it and not much of anything else..

the next batch this out-fit sent to me tested out by Matt at what you see below,
which as you can see is not 1095 either
C 0.800
Mn 0.37
P .015
S <0.001
Si 0.19
Cu 0.020
Ni 0.02
Cr 0.19
Mo <0.001

the problem now is,,
the company says they obtained a certificate of compliance for the material that was used in this 2nd order and says the steel sent to me shows in the report, this in it..
0.960 C
0.370 Mn
0.018 P
0.001 S
0.180 Si
0.190 Cr

they will send some of the steel out for a test of there own they said, I'm thinking I want them to do so..

I'd like your thoughts on this?
Matt looked up in the book that 1095 at least in that book does not show 1095 to have CR in it, and the steel out-fit is saying their steel, as you can see, does have CR in it..

it's always said here most of the time, use known steel, then we run into these types of things. do we ever really know what we are getting, we could maybe if we had a 150K machine of our own to test with

what does a good 1095 steel suppose to have in it?

also if the next test comes back that the steel is still not 1095 this means a certificate on it means Nothing to anyone..

I'm trusting Matt's company they are reputable and have no reason to show it any other way than the way it is..

 

[mete]

1095 is a plain carbon steel, .90/1.03 C, .30/.50 Mn. Anything else is a trace element.For Cr and Si what you have there is about as high as you could go and still call it a "trace" element. Anything higher and it would be an alloying element. The big problem is the difference in your test and the cert.By all means have the company check it. That high a Cr and Si level may be a trace amount but may have a noticeble effect on forging or HT ! The weird chemistrys are more and more of a problem .Best to find a good source and stick to it even if it's a higher price !!

 

[Mark Williams]

And it's just going to keep getting worse. I'm surprised not to see some copper in there also Dan.

 

[mdoyle]

Mark,
Cu is copper. You will find it in the numbers I gave Dan. It is well within range. The numbers on both tests are almost identical, aside from the C content. As I just stated in an email to Dan, to think that our lab was off 16 points is absurd. There is no human error involved. I could not print out the results from the lab as I did not have a labtech out the other night. All I could do is run the machine myself and write down the numbers. When I go back and there is a labtech I will printout the full results and post them in this thread.
Matt Doyle

 

[Dan Gray]

thanks Guys
Robert yes I'm thinking going somewhere else for the steel...Thanks a bunch.

Matt I sent them a bunch of info to ponder on..
they are going by a cert where as you have the machine to go by, I'm trusting in the first party first by all means , that's you My friend..:thumbup:
that cert they have, could have come from any steel other than mine..

so I asked them to go ahead and have it tested themselves where they said they would do that, so they will know for sure what it is.. if their suppliers are working them over they should know about it..

I don't blame this company but they are getting to know what they don't have for steel .. haha
Mark did you see the results of the first steel I got from them? a coat hangar would have made a better knife
thanks Guys..

 

[mdoyle]

Mete could you please take the time to explain this statement:

That high a Cr and Si level may be a trace amount but may have a noticeble effect on forging or HT ! The weird chemistrys are more and more of a problem .Best to find a good source and stick to it even if it's a higher price !!

I am certainly not discrediting your advice, but what would one do differently in the case that this was the steel they intended to work? Wouldn't you still just heat treat like you would 1080? 1450 and quench? Because of the added Cr and Si would you need to extend the soak time? I'm not saying that it wouldn't behave differently , I'm just asking if there is a way to know what it would do and how to compensate for it.
Thank you,
Matt

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

... it's always said here most of the time, use known steel, then we run into these types of things. do we ever really know what we are getting, we could maybe if we had a 150K machine of our own to test with ...

The chemistry variations these days are problematic. 1095 has actually been sliding in quality for some time. As has been mentioned, find a good source and stick with it. However, the danger of lamenting increasing trace elements, and the occasional miss-labeling, too much is the indication that it could somehow justify embracing scrap mystery steel. A few extra traces of chrome is hardly the equivalent of grabbing a hunk of steel out of a dumpster and heat treating like it was 1095 with healthy dose of wishful thinking.

A certain percentage of people die every year due to doctors with certification screwing up, but we can hardly then justify having our neighbor who is a plumber help us out with our own open heart surgery instead of going to a guy who has the papers that says he is a heart surgeon.

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

... Wouldn't you still just heat treat like you would 1080? 1450 and quench? Because of the added Cr and Si would you need to extend the soak time...

1450F seems low for 1080, I would definitely increase the soak time at that temperature. The Cr could affect soak times, the Si not as much.

 

[mete]

There may be small but significant changes in forgeability, hardenability, temperatures [Ac1 etc] .I wouldn't expect soak time to change much. If you have really experimented and mastered your forging and HT for a steel then you might have to revise those details .Very inconvenient.For those who have not worked out precise details it wouldn't matter too much.

 

[Dan Gray]

the problem with a cert you can mix them up, the reputation of a doctor is what I'd be looking for more so in him other than just a paper..
that would equate to finding a good source, you are right.. though,
I wouldn't mind having a plumber at my operation just for the fact that if the doctor messed up, the plumber could whack him beside the head with a pipe wrench.