Roman Centurion / Gladius/Dukti Sword History Lesson

Greetings: Kronckew
Outstanding Roman Legion organization description. The very best that I have ever read. A+ for you! Advance immediately to the head of the Roman Legion military class.

As for me, I am just your average old infantry man. However, I did give a good thumbnail sketch as to just how important the Roman Centurion was to the Roman Legions and how effective the GLADIUS performed for over a thousand years. Yes sir, if you ever have to get involved in a knive fight be sure and grab a GLADIUS and take it with you. If you have time, also grab a sawed off 12 guage shotgun, a 45 caliber pistol, and a few hand grenades. Such items should assist greatly in stopping the knife fight in short order.

One last detail, the Roman Legions did use calvary troops within their organization from time. I beleive that they were used on the outer flanks of the legions when availiable. Anyone out there got more info on the use of calvary troops used to support the Roman Legion please jump in and tell what information you have on the subject.

Great stuff, yes sir! It is amazing what a lot of men can accomplish when they join together to share information on a particular subject.

I got to go now. Today is Sunday. I am going to church to get churched up. God knows I need it. However, I am absolutely sure that God is in agreement with me in the use of weapons for SELF DEFENSE. King David in the bible sure used any weapon he got his hands on for defending his nation.

J. W. Kilpatrick



J. W. Kilpatrick
 
One last post here in reference to the DUKTI SWORD.
Yangdu, I think that if Bura could be persuaded to hammer out a few more DUKTI SWORDS that the sharks here would snap them right up, since folks here have been educated about them and should have by now developed an appreciation for the DUKTI SWORD and how effectively it can be use to defend oneself in a knife fight. Don't make Bura feel under pressure -- this is just a suggestion, if he should have enough steel on hand for a few more DUKTI SWORDS.

Thankyou, Yangdu and Bura and all the kamis for producing such world class blades for us to be able to secure and place in our collections. It is a real honor to be associated with and support Himalayan Imports.

Thankyou once again,

J. W. Kilpatrick
 
Are these swords differentially tempered or through (spring) tempered? Any one know?
 
arty said:
Are these swords differentially tempered or through (spring) tempered? Any one know?
Click to expand...

Arty you might do a search and see if you can find anything where Dave, aka Satori etched one of these.
I'm sure Dave etched one or more of his swords, just don't recall which one/ones.
 
arty said:
Are these swords differentially tempered or through (spring) tempered? Any one know?
Click to expand...

My Dukti, Manjushree, and all three of my Napoleon swords seem to be through hardened at something a bit harder than spring tempered. They take a nice crisp edge and will hold it pretty well. At the MWKK '05, we actually chopped some fairly hard wood with my Manjushree. Aside from scuffing there was no damage and the edge held up well. The Dukti, with its full tang, ought to be stronger if anything.

I did manage to bend a Napoleon enough for it to take a set; as corrective action, I put the tip against the ground, held the handle in both hands, and pushed on the bend with my foot until it straightened out. No problems since then.

Before anyone cries foul, I'm of the belief that this sort of a temper is perfectly acceptable on swords for a variety of reasons, and some of the finest swords made today are heat treated in a similar fashion.

On a similar note, is it even possible to differentially harden both edges on a double edged sword using the teapot method? I'd think you'd need a clay coat to do this right and I can only imagine how tricky it would be. KM? Dan? Justin? Longrifle?
 
I would think that it would be very difficult to produce a differential temper on a double-edged sword.
The longer the blade, the more difficulty one would have with the teapot pouring method.
I personally think that a through-hardened blade is desireable on this type of sword, and that was why I asked.
 
Hannibal sure "ate their lunch," but I doubt that was due to any reforms made in the Second Century AD.

And if Julius Caesar had an uncle alive then (2nd cent. AD), we need to check for immortals. :D

Great pics.

Did you see the series on famous battles in GB? There was one on the defeat of Buddica's forces by a single legion using the "wedge."
 
Thomas Linton said:
Hannibal sure "ate their lunch," but I doubt that was due to any reforms made in the Second Century AD.

And if Julius Caesar had an uncle alive then (2nd cent. AD), we need to check for immortals. :D

Great pics.

Did you see the series on famous battles in GB? There was one on the defeat of Buddica's forces by a single legion using the "wedge."
Click to expand...

so i took a little liberty with the time line, i admit. kinda hard to cover a few hundred years in a few sentences. i DID say b.c, not A.D. - which would have put it out by about 3-400 years. caesar & cleo were 1st century bc, and marius was about when julius was a child, at roughly the end of the 2nd century B.C.

hannibal was another few centuies earlier, tho he did ambush a few legions on the march, he was better than the romans because his troops were seasoned vets that could be depended on to follow orders, (the famous elephants mostly died on the way over the alps & he did not have enough left to matter in italy)

the romans opposing him were still in general citizen levies with little battle experience hastily recruited and organised and led by brilliantly stupid officers. they learned fast tho & scipio cleaned hannibal's clock at zama later on. rome could produce more soldiers faster than the carthaginians & eventually wore them out - logistics,logistics,logistics.

saw parts of the series, interesting. can get the whole series on dvd which i'd like, mebbe my xmas present....

they had another one where using computer simulation, arial views, big screens etc. they get 4 non-historians to fight a famous ancient battle, as in cannae, and a few more, they did the boudica one too, and some i hadn't heard of. they'd gotten a few profs of military history who kibitzed in the background & then showed them how the battle was fought for real.

even had one where q. varo won & beat the germans (quint.varus was another of the 'not very bright' variety in real life) - that one was 1st century AD (ad 9 to be precise) & a bit before boudica if i recall correctly (by about 60 years). he lost 3 whole legions by marching them into the german forest, nobody, at least no romans, marched out again, the story was that augustus would wander around his palace for the rest of his life muttering 'varo, give me back my legions' (40 years later another roman general actually rescued a few roman survivors who had been turned into german slaves.)

for satori & arty:

the gladius probably killed more people than any other weapon in history, not just swords - up until recently anyway - caesar killed a couple of million in gaul alone. after rome, mostly small battles, by comparison, right up to the 2nd ww. the machine gun is catching up fast, if not already past it though.

i tend to go along with the red tunic bunch, for the same reason that the brits did, it makes the blood less obvious when your friends are getting wounded, there were plenty of dye works in roman days, civilians wore fairly decorative and colourful tunics, i'd bet that it was not cut & dried tho, probably white/unbleached was cheaper initially, but would be hell to keep clean enough for your centurion & his stick! probably depended on the legion, season, availability. they certainly mixed armour types (mail,plate,scale), helmets (brass,bronze,iron) and gladius variants (mainz,fulham,pompeii) as older weapons and armour would be collected and reused for centuries...

as they say in the ESG website, this is all experimental archaeology & we will never know for sure, we can only offer a glimpse of what might have been, not what was. not until dr. who takes us & our video cameras back in the tardis anyhow.
 
Counterpoint (sort of): Clicky.

My guess is that both were used, and maybe even more than that.

Imagine for a moment that you're an archaeologist two millenia from now. You're examing the ruins of Naval Base Kitsap. Very few records of uniforms have been left so you're trying to make sense of what you're finding.

On our base we have Navy, Marines, and a handful of others. The Navy's changed its standard working uniform three times over the nine years that I've been in and they're gearing up for another one. Additionally, security forces wear cammies so add another.

The Marines only changed once, from the standard cammies to digies, but each comes in two flavors. They also changed their boots from shine to no-shine. To confuse things, though, unlike the Navy the Marines have a policy of allowing the old uniform to continue to be worn after the change - the old ones will be replaced by new ones as they wear out.

Then we've got the dressier uniforms. I don't know how many the Marines have (I think only two) but we're saddled with four, not including spiffed up versions for parades and such. Additionally, the summer whites are made from two different materials and both are authorized. Females have an entirely different four sets on top of that, not including skirts. (Which are soon going way if they haven't already, but the skirts would bump it up to a few more uniforms.)

Two branches of service on one base over a period of several years and I've already confused myself - and I've only covered two of five branches of service. Imagine what a future researcher would think?

Let's apply this to our hypothetical legion. Say we're out on campaign, uniforms get worn up and torn. After a while they're not worth patching up anymore. Making a new tunica is no real difficulty but what if there's no red dye handy?

"Screw it," says Optio Satori. "Leave 'em plain. If the Emperor doesn't like it he can hang me if we ever make it back to Italia." And soon enough, it's authorized on campaign/in the field/anywhere but the barracks/etc.

Just one guess.
 
not an unreasonable assumption, satori, and just because the XX legion want white tunics for other ranks, and red for centurions doesn't prevent the IX from wearing all red.

betcha like most military, they all carried a set of civvies, niceley coloured, mebbe plaids and stripes with fancy edging & embroidery. i don't think they had the same uniformity of appearance fetish that my prussian relatives saddled themselves with.

i'd guess with their production methods there was a large difference in raw materials, design preferences, construction techniques, and quality from one end of the empire to the other. the poor sod at the end of the lance took what the quartermaster had in stock & liked it or else. his civvies he could use to express his own tastes. ( i'd bet as they survived & earned money they'd replace their issue kit with better and fancier custom made kit, not that we do that in these modern days of course ;) ).

of course, having been an ossifer myself, i always had to buy my own kit, uncle sam never provided it, except my issue weapon when needed, so i bought the best that i could afford (ie. the cheapest crap available)
 
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