Rope slicing test CPM D2 vs. D2

An interesting conclusion can be drawn if you combine this work and the work of Wilson noted in the above. Of course the suppording data is light as it is just two knives, but if a=b and b=c, then a=c.

-Cliff

I don't agree with making a statement based upon tests of two knives, by two people.

Saying that the data is light is a very, very serious understatement. Certainly not enough data to make pronouncements of the steels in general.

It would barely be enough data for an individual custom maker to put forth claims on their own work, let alone the steel.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
To test two steels and draw some sort of conclusion, won't both knives need to be the same HRC? Preferably even made by the same maker so the heat treat process will be the same? Do you think Phil will make two identical knives and then do a pass around? I think it would be very interesting to see the outcome of testing different material. I have a lot of unopened boxes of 3/8" sailing rope that is begging to be used. 7 boxes with 500' per box.
 
To test two steels and draw some sort of conclusion, won't both knives need to be the same HRC?

That depends on what question you are trying to answer. If you wanted to know which steel was better for a knife you would heat treat each so as to give the optimal combination of properties. This will rarely give them both the same hardness and almost never end up at 60 HRC.

Now as for the both same maker, etc., if the difference in the steels mentioned here were that slight that the only way to see them would be if the same maker made both the exact same knives - what does it say in general for people buying knives and chosing between those steels?

Obviously that the steels do not matter.

The types of comparisons made by Mike in the above are actually more valuable to the buying public because they represent the real differences that will be seen. Few people are going to compare identical knives and thus for advantages of steels to actually MATTER they need to be large enough to overcome that.

Consider a few points :

Lets assume that instead of the steels used the Military was S90V and the Sorg 420HC, what would the result be and what conclusion would be drawn in general? In short, S90V would have a HUGE advantage due to the massive carbide fraction and this would swamp out readily the differences in geometry. Thus the buying public could then infer than if you compared to knives, one in S90V and another in 420HC, even if the knives were different, the S90V blade would tend to have a large advantage in slicing aggression. Note this is exactly the proposition that makers affirm constantly.

How about if instead Mike has done hemp rope cutting as a measure of sharpness and cut to the same force as Goddard does. In this case the 420HC Sorg would cut well ahead of the Military for a long time (it has a much more acute profile). Now what would this mean in general to the buying public? That if you look at cutting ability and not sharpness then the geometry can be far more important than the steel.

Of course Phil compares two blades, and is 100% welcomed for his work (as he should be). Now Mike compares two blades and gets questioned on reaching conclusions because of two blades. Now to expand on the above, if you accept that a=b in Phil's work, then you have to accept b=c in Mike's work which was actually much more quantitative. Thus it follows a=c.

Now again the equals here means "not significantly different" which is a fairly loose statement. it just means no difference was noted that could be proven statistically. It does not mean you proved they were equal, the work just failed to show there was a significant difference. Note that any user will have vastly lower tolerances and thus if careful quantitative work does not show a difference, no user just working will see any.

Again just consider what a normal user would see if they were given all the blades to cut with.

-Cliff
 
I have a dumb question:

Aside from powderfication*, does CPM-D2 differ from regular D2 in type and amount of alloys? If there are any Crucible reps I haven't chased away with my poor manners who are allowed to answer, that'd be really cool.

*For more ways to expounderate your already educatorized vocabulary, watch Tigger whenever possible.
 
It could still fall within the bounds set for D2, but differ from Crucible's regular D2. Kind of like how Crucible and Carpenter have different alloys which both fall under the umbrella of L6, only without the second company.
 
I thought this was a test comparing CPM D2 to D2, to see if one performs better than the other? No one may ever do a test of steels like I mentioned, but I as a future knife maker would like to know the results. And in turn make this info available to whoever wants to use it. I think some very interesting results will be found.
 
As for the method, I tied the weight off on one end of the twine, used my right hand to hold the other end of the twine, and near the point of hold I would put the edge on the twine, slowly lift the weight with the blade to get the water bottle free hanging (I started with it standing on the floor) and make sure it wasn't swinging, and slowly and deliberately slice the twine once the blade was even with my hold hand in height. I did everything possible to avoid any downward pressure from my hold hand and swinging of the weight.

Thanks for the reply, Mike. I'm still trying to visualize it. It would be easy with a drawing. Is this the condition at the start of the slice?

question.jpg


So the edge was statically supporting the weight of the bottle, and then you would do the slicing motion and watch (and record) where the twine broke.

Do you think measuring like this at a slow slice speed will measure the same "slicing ability" (your sharpness) as the faster & harder slice it takes to cut the manilla rope? I am still thinking about how this affects the conclusion that can be made.

I agree with prev poster that it is proper to qualify the conclusion to include the knife & material specs. That info was provided here though, just not included as constraints on the conclusion.

Thanks again.
 
Thanks for the reply, Mike. I'm still trying to visualize it. It would be easy with a drawing. Is this the condition at the start of the slice?

question.jpg


So the edge was statically supporting the weight of the bottle, and then you would do the slicing motion and watch (and record) where the twine broke.

Do you think measuring like this at a slow slice speed will measure the same "slicing ability" (your sharpness) as the faster & harder slice it takes to cut the manilla rope? I am still thinking about how this affects the conclusion that can be made.

I agree with prev poster that it is proper to qualify the conclusion to include the knife & material specs. That info was provided here though, just not included as constraints on the conclusion.

Thanks again.


Actually, the edge was pointing straight up, but that is the general idea in the picture. Care has to be taken not to add tension with the hand holding the end of the twine. I kept my hand at the same height as the edge, so the twine was at a parallel angle to the ground (vertical from the ground to the edge, then horizontal to my hand) and not going towards the ground adding more tension. When you add tension with the holding hand the twine is cut with less edge length, but after several trial runs for practice I got to feeling comfortable with my consistency with my technique. I'm not sure if that is how Cliff does it (with the edge vertical or not), but I figured that way the edge was supporting the full weight of the bottle and I got consistent results with that technique, so that is what I did. Any input on how to improve my technique on this type of measurement is appreciated, as again this was my first test of this type and I am trying to learn.

I think this type of measurement correlates well with the rope slicing ability, as the cuts on the rope took more and more force and weren't as clean as the results on twine cutting got worse. The twine testing also correlated well with the loss of ability to push cut and slice newsprint and shave, which are pretty standard "layman's" tests of sharpness, along with feeling for smoothing of the edge with the finger pads. Of course, it is very hard to quantify the "layman's" tests for any statistical analysis. For the purposes of this test I think the twine testing worked very well, and the numbers and my "layman's" tests told me that both steels (as done on these knives) were perfoming pretty much identically for me when cutting that rope. Again, this was my first measured test, so I know there was room for improvement in my technique and methods, but the results were pretty consistent for me from run to run and that makes me think my method was pretty solid on this test. I would have loved to do more testing, and hope to add more knives with the same type of testing in the future to see how S30V and other steels compare to my results here, but this testing is very labor intensive and tiring, along with taking a lot of time. Having a young family and a high hour job limits my free time for testing like this. Hopefully soon there will be future tests posted on these knives so I can see how other's testing comes out for these 2 knives and how it correlates with my testing.

I really appreciate the critical feedback, as it can only help me to learn more and refine my testing. The critical feedback makes you think about and justify your methods, and helps you to open up your mind to other options and techniques for future testing.

Mike
 
Hey Mike,

I think your test is great and I appreciate the time you are sacrificing that we may have enlightenment through it. I am not questioning any aspect of your test.

Just wish the knives were equal.
 
Hey Mike,

I think your test is great and I appreciate the time you are sacrificing that we may have enlightenment through it. I am not questioning any aspect of your test.

Just wish the knives were equal.

Thanks. I agree that it would have been nice if the knives were the same profile, but as far as I know no one is making the same blade in D2 and CPM D2, at least in my price range. Maybe we need to get Sal Glesser to make a run of Militaries in standard D2 so we can do a test. He does like to put out lots of steels for us knife knuts to play with! Another thing to consider is that with the CPM Process you "should" be able to run the blade to a higher hardness without running into chipping. I believe that Phil Wilson runs his CPM 154 2 points harder than his 154CM, and he has reported much better results with CPM 154 than 154CM, so keeping the blades at identical hardness might not maximize the potential for the D2 or CPM D2.

Actually, Spyderco does have a Mule Team project going where they are planning to make the same blade shape and profile knife in several different steels. That would be a great thing for you to join in on to try out different steels in the same blade profile.

Mike
 
I'll try again - I should have drawn this the first time, because it makes more sense than my previous dwg:

question4.jpg


So the force at the edge is adding the vectors F and F, both of which are the tension on the string (= weight of bottle). And the force that is making the cut on the edge of the knife is at a roughly 45 deg angle to the knife edge (depending on exact angles). The force will vary a little if the angles change, but not much. Quite honestly I don't know how much the direction of force making the cut really matters, but wanted to point out that the cut is not being made with a force perpindicular to the edge.

Another issue that comes to my geeky mind is at the beginning of the test, when the edge is sharper (push cutting), is some amount of twine cutting being done prior to the slice? If yes, at the beginning of the test there may be more of a push cutting factor to this measurement, and as the edge gets duller this factor decreases and it becomes more slicing. just conjecture...

I do not doubt the correlations you mention, but I do not think I would be comfortable assuming equality between this measurement and manilla rope slicing without data that showed there is equality (or a direct correlation) between them. To me there are too many differences in the two cuts to just assume a direct correlation.

All that said, your results look consistent and seem to provide a decent measure of comparison for these blades. While I prefer the tests where the measurements are taken directly from the cutting of the rope that is causing the edge degradation (Wilson & Goddard), I think your test would be a heck of a lot easier for the average guy to keep consistent.

And I would have liked to see identical geometries, and maybe a D2 blade with hardness more in line with what is commercially available (a point or two softer).

Thanks again for taking the time & sharing this, Mike.
 
No one may ever do a test of steels like I mentioned, but I as a future knife maker would like to know the results.

I have already performed tests on identical knives by the same maker with different steels, including unknown steels/hardness until the work was completed. See for example work done with the Deerhunters and Kirks knives.

It could still fall within the bounds set for D2, but differ from Crucible's regular D2.

Most tend to have slight variances in their mix and the mixes tend to change over time. How much of this is significant is anyones guess is there are rarely hard facts released. However in general you would expect all steels labeled D2 to act like D2, otherwise it would make no sense for them to be called D2. There are always differences, for example the bounds on the 440 series actually overlap, all that you really know is that in general 440C has a higher carbide fraction and hardness than 440B, but individual bars from each might actually be similar due to the variances.

I'm not sure if that is how Cliff does it ....

Edge vertical, rope horizontal. I prefer the thread cutting as an unbiased measure of sharpness as the cord slicing is much harder to do without bias, but the cord slicing is way faster and tests a different type of sharpness. The biggest variance is the effect of the user pulling down on the cord, you have to be really careful there.

... as far as I know no one is making the same blade in D2 and CPM D2

Ask Thom to regrind the Military with his xx-coarse DMT.

Actually, Spyderco does have a Mule Team project going where they are planning to make the same blade shape and profile knife in several different steels.

Yes, mant things like this will come in time. I just wanted to give people the chance to get some experience with evaluations and develop their methods before we get the blind tests running as they are not really the time to be experimenting. I have for example identical blades coming in high edge stability steels (AEB-l) high wear/stability steels (F2 class) and then extreme high wear steels (T15 class). You want to make the most out of working with customs like this and not at the end of the day conclude that the method needed to be adjusted.

However, we also have to carefully consider our goal. What question are we trying to answer? The first is simple, is there any difference at all? This question would want tight quantitative controls on identical knives. But another is simlpy "Will anyone using the knives see any difference?" These are similar but different questions and they need to be approached differently. I hope that we can explore both questions as different people will take varied approaches to working with the knives.

Here is the reference page for this project :

http://www.cutleryscience.com/evaluations/d2_sorg_vs_cpm_d2_military/index.html

-Cliff
 
Edge vertical, rope horizontal. I prefer the thread cutting as an unbiased measure of sharpness as the cord slicing is much harder to do without bias, but the cord slicing is way faster and tests a different type of sharpness. The biggest variance is the effect of the user pulling down on the cord, you have to be really careful there.

When I was doing my trial runs and practice (which took nearly as much time as the actual testing, it seemed) I noticed how easy it was to pull down on the twine and make the blade look sharper than it was. It took a decent amount of cuts until I felt more comfortable with my results, and that I was being as consistent as possible without adding tension. Being human there will always be some sort of error on tests like this, but when you take a lot of different cuts and runs it would seem to even it out. It would also be nice if we could build a thread/scale to pass around with the knives for push cut testing. That sure would be a huge improvement over trying to quantify sharpness by newsprint testing, with the media and methods being so varied. I just try my best to be consistent with my own tests so at least my own numbers will be comparable from knife to knife, but the scale/thread combo should allow the group to have a better apples to apples comparison method.



Ask Thom to regrind the Military with his xx-coarse DMT.

He does love to do extreme regrinds with his D8XX, but he has been using his belt sander more lately.

Yes, mant things like this will come in time. I just wanted to give people the chance to get some experience with evaluations and develop their methods before we get the blind tests running as they are not really the time to be experimenting. I have for example identical blades coming in high edge stability steels (AEB-l) high wear/stability steels (F2 class) and then extreme high wear steels (T15 class). You want to make the most out of working with customs like this and not at the end of the day conclude that the method needed to be adjusted.

However, we also have to carefully consider our goal. What question are we trying to answer? The first is simple, is there any difference at all? This question would want tight quantitative controls on identical knives. But another is simlpy "Will anyone using the knives see any difference?" These are similar but different questions and they need to be approached differently. I hope that we can explore both questions as different people will take varied approaches to working with the knives.

-Cliff

I really thank you for the opportunity to test these and I learned a lot about testing and procedures in this work. Now I at least have a baseline of testing knowledge when the blind tests start, and I know that seeing other people's work will help out my testing as well. I know my blind testing of the custom knives will be much better than if I took my first shot at testing those, which as you said would make the results from that testing have less meaningful results.

Mike
 
When I was doing my trial runs and practice (which took nearly as much time as the actual testing, it seemed) I noticed how easy it was to pull down on the twine and make the blade look sharper than it was.

Yes, note that all testing is like this, even the digital equipment is sensitive to user influences in many ways. You can never get rid of this, minimize it yes, random surely, but there are a million and one ways to introduce a systematic bias.

What is important is that you always think about it and try to make sure you are giving the best representative data that is possible. If you are really honest then you just ask someone else to do the same thing and check anyway.

...the scale/thread combo should allow the group to have a better apples to apples comparison method.

Yeah, I want to be perfectly clear though that everyone is free to do whatever they want. There are dozens of people who are willing to use the knives, all of that data will be useful. i will compile and sort it all out, just make sure that what you do is interesting and fun for you.

I really thank you for the opportunity to test these and I learned a lot about testing and procedures in this work.

Thanks to Sal for providing the Military and it only cost me a few dollars to send them out. It took you many hours to do the work and it provided valuable information, the thanks go to you Mike and all the others who are willing to contribute their time.

I know my blind testing of the custom knives will be much better than if I took my first shot at testing those, which as you said would make the results from that testing have less meaningful results.

That was the goal, lots more knives to come. Many makers have offered to grind, others to heat treat. I even have customed forged parangs coming in various shapes and sizes.

-Cliff
 
Thanks to Sal for providing the Military and it only cost me a few dollars to send them out. It took you many hours to do the work and it provided valuable information, the thanks go to you Mike and all the others who are willing to contribute their time.
-Cliff

1. Sal/Spyderco GAVE you a knife? How do you feel that this affects your "objectivity"?

2. Cashen has noted marked differences in the L6 that he got from one supplier compared to another. It may bear fruit if you contacted him concerning this, your questions would be much more concise and specific than mine.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
1. Sal/Spyderco GAVE you a knife? How do you feel that this affects your "objectivity"?

STeven Garsson

Steven, I know you and Cliff don't exactly see eye to eye (vast understatement, you would probably agree), I just want to let you know my experiences so far in regards to the testing of these knives. The Spyderco came to me in out of the box condition, and I recieved no instructions on how or what to test. Cliff has done no testing on the knife as far as I know and certainly hasn't asked me or anyone that I know of to make it look good or bad in any way, just to compare it to a knife in D2 steel however we wanted with no restrictions, and to report the results. In my case it performed no better than the standard D2 knife, hardly a case of putting in the fix for the Spyderco. Truthfully Spyderco is my favorite manufacturer of production knives (even though I end up sending a lot of my Spydercos to Tom Krein for regrinds) and I was really looking forward to trying the CPM D2 Military, but I did the cutting and reported the results I got with no bias or agenda, and the results certainly didn't favor the Military in any way. If Cliff had an agenda and no objectivity in this case I would think he would have tested it himself with the Spyderco dominating the testing, but that didn't happen, and as far as I know he doesn't plan on testing it, or at least not until dozens of others have. Cliff didn't design the knife and doesn't stand to profit from it, I just think Sal wanted some feedback on the performance of the knife, though I have no clue about any communications he had with Cliff before or after shipping the knife and testing. I'm assuming since Cliff stipulated to test whatever we want that Sal had no restrictions on the testing to be done. As stated earlier by Cliff I believe he wants us volunteer testers to get testing experience before doing the blind tests on the knives he is having made, while also exploring any differences we can find between D2 and CPM D2.

Either way, I think a big thanks is in order to Sal for providing the knife in a very new steel for some of us lucky ones to try and test out before they hit the streets. He certainly seems very interested in the feedback, whether it be good or bad, on the performance of the knife and the steel, and I think most knife guys can appreciate that. And again, I thank Cliff for sending off the Spyderco and another knife of his own for testing by a large group of random people.

Mike
 
1. Sal/Spyderco GAVE you a knife? How do you feel that this affects your "objectivity"?

Did you consider his review overly favorable to the CPM-D2? I didn't... Though, I am not as knowledgable as a lot of folks on this forum.

It was a nice review, IMHO
 
In the past there has been noticeable differences observed in different D2. Some have even gone far enough to give it a label like D2 modified and D2 enhanced. I think I remember Rob Simonich sharing results of a lot of testing he did of different batches of D2.
As for the hand that is holding the end of the rope effecting the measurement you can minimize it greatly by tying it off, clamping the end, or even just giving it one wrap around something solid like a hook, chair back or most anything will do.
 
Either way, I think a big thanks is in order to Sal for providing the knife in a very new steel for some of us lucky ones to try and test out before they hit the streets. He certainly seems very interested in the feedback, whether it be good or bad, on the performance of the knife and the steel, and I think most knife guys can appreciate that. And again, I thank Cliff for sending off the Spyderco and another knife of his own for testing by a large group of random people.

Mike

Mike,

In no way am I impugning you. The question was directed to Cliff. Personally, I never claimed to be objective.

Sal Glesser is a friend of mine. We have a long-standing relationship based upon mutual respect, and shared appreciation of knives. We argue like all get-out, about a vast majority of subjects, but are always able to see past that, and have fun because of the mutual respect, so hard earned over time.

If Sal asked me to review something, I would, and would not compromise my objectivity towards the piece, out of RESPECT for our friendship.

Now, I don't care if you agree, or disagree, but I have found very little of Cliff Stamp worthy of respect, and I am absolutely convinced that he feels the same about me. That said, he skirts difficult/confrontational questions, and it does this Forum a disservice to dodge this question.

It is not about you.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
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